by the fans for the fans

I woke up with a great idea. We can actually christen them as MEZAPs instead, and when they pass each other in the hall, they salute each other and exclaim "MEZAP! MEZAP!" It's like a rite of honour so they don't forget where they came from.

Peter Young wrote: Oh, Alpha Bravo? You already made it clear you don't agree with DR-052, but untill he actually makes another post on that subject, there's no need to go on. Pointing at another person means three fingers point at yourself.

But I had to tell you why Scott is the best Robotech hero.

Peter Young wrote: ... there were already several Zentraedi reverting to their violent ways when Khyron got hold of the device that could turn micronized Zentraedi back to giants. From that moment on, Khyron could become a real threat. Him likely not even be able to leave Earth made him even more dangerous - he could only ventilate his anger on humans.

So, a Fleet Admiral should personally respond to every group of minor rebels in person? As I said ... At the time, Kyron was considered a minor nascence. he was hiding in the jungle somewhere, unknown ... he had NO mechanical or electrical skills what-so-ever! That's what the repair/construction drones on the Robotech Factory are for. ALL Zentraedi repair and maintenance has to be done at a Factory Station (Sentinels book II REF Field Guide pg110) They can do NO repair on their own. According to the information available, Kyron had what little operational equipment he could scavenge. once that runs out he's just a giant on foot with a club. You expect a Fleet Admiral to respond to that in person, with the threat of a fleet of 10 mile long warships, each equipped with a main reflex cannon on the way?

Peter Young wrote: Besides, given the lack of means Earth had after the Zentraedi war, surely no one would like everything they just rebuild constantly attacked and destroyed by marauding Malcontents. Certainly the civilians would complain about the army not doing anything to prevent it. There is no point in going away on military expedition when your borders are not save or when you have an internal rebellion. Always secure homebase first ...

The weren't doing nothing to prevent it, Breetai was a Fleet Admiral not a mecha pilot, The RDF was dealing with him,. That's THEIR job not his. he was trying to secure his "home base", from the greater threat, as it proved to be a decade later.

Peter Young wrote: If the military high command really reasoned they could take on the Robotech Masters without dealing with the uprising first - discontented Zentraedi would have been very likely to side with the Masters if they attacked -, then obviously all the competent military strategists had already perished during the rain of death.

That was the whole Idea, to NOT have them attack. GO THERE and use the SDF-3 and the REF for gunboat-diplomacy. They say just that in the Sentinels. meanwhile the remaining RDF & Southern Cross deal with the renegade Zentraedi. That's their job.

Peter Young wrote: The Sentinels-movie was more realistic in this regard: both Rick and general Leonard had second thoughts about dividing the forces and thereby leaving Earth more vulnerable for attack.

Yes, but General Leonard proved to be a moron. The Idea was to prevent Earth from being attacked again, by taking the war to them and forcing a peace on their home world.

Peter Young wrote: And that was after Earth seemed to have been rebuild and apparently no Zentraedi rebels were left. That was not yet the case in episodes 27-36.

No, there were still thousands of rouge Zentraedi on earth, as well as breakaway human governments (such as the EBSIS). They had just been cleared from North America and were operating in the various jungles (Africa, South America & S-E Asia) without means for ship repair and a lack of air transport, they were not an immediate threat on the areas being rebuilt. The RDF sent out units and established bases around known areas of Zentraedi activity to cordon them off and eliminate them systematically. No need to rush in and get hundreds, or even thousands of trained mecha pilots killed when you can surround them and wait from their equipment to just break-down. Then you have a force of giants with clubs to face.

Peter Young wrote: Yes, compared to the Masters, the Malcontents were a minor threath. But the Malcontents were a direct threath and a given reality, wereas the Masters were a likely but yet only potential danger. And Breetai's better equiped troops surely could win from the motley crew Khyron was trying to gather? Would almost be passtime while waiting for the SDF-2 to be finished.

All of Breetai's troops were micronized or being micronized, their mecha scrapped for parts and new micronized mecha (Z-1 & Z-2) in the design works. The Masters were a known threat. They weren't going to just throw millions of warships at the Earth, loose, and say "oh well, we tried." They were coming and they knew it. They just didn't know when. If Kyron hadn't wrecked the SDF-2, the REF may have caught them before they left, as it was Dana had to deal with them. As I said, Breetai was a Fleet Admiral not some foot soldier, and his troops were being micronized to suit the new REF. The more powerful, and better armored, RDF mecha were dealing (and later did deal) with the renegade Zentraedi issue. They just weren't aware that Kyron had gotten hold of human repair engineers that could get a ship working again.

DR-052 wrote: So, a Fleet Admiral should personally respond to every group of minor rebels in person? As I said ... At the time, Kyron was considered a minor nascence. he was hiding in the jungle somewhere, unknown ... he had NO mechanical or electrical skills what-so-ever! That's what the repair/construction drones on the Robotech Factory are for. ALL Zentraedi repair and maintenance has to be done at a Factory Station (Sentinels book II REF Field Guide pg110) They can do NO repair on their own.

Except here, from 1:23 to 3:05, we see Zentraedi "assessing the extent of the damage to their battered cruiser" and fixing it:



And here, from 2:55 to 3:59, it's "slowly been restored", and is now fixed:

DR-052 wrote: They just weren't aware that Kyron had gotten hold of human repair engineers that could get a ship working again.

I saw no human repair engineers working for Khyron in either of these episodes.

I didn't say they are incapable of learning, I said they weren't "programed" with those skills. He hired/kidnaped/threatened humans with the skills. They taught some of his crew (Officers, Pilots, or some of the more intelligent foot soldiers) some of those skills; Basic Mechanics, Basic Electrical repair, Basic Weapons repair. It's unknown/doubtful that any were trained in advanced Mecha/Reactor/Anti-Gravity engineering/repair. Those repairs were done by human Traders/Mercs or prisoners not the actual Zentraedi crew. You don't see them because they just weren't shown. Kyron was 60 ft tall, how would you see a little 6 ft human running around his feet (to get stepped on?). without human tutelage, they just aren't given the training.

DR-052 wrote: I didn't say they are incapable of learning, I said they weren't "programed" with those skills. He hired/kidnaped/threatened humans with the skills. They taught some of his crew (Officers, Pilots, or some of the more intelligent foot soldiers) some of those skills; Basic Mechanics, Basic Electrical repair, Basic Weapons repair. It's unknown/doubtful that any were trained in advanced Mecha/Reactor/Anti-Gravity engineering/repair. Those repairs were done by human Traders/Mercs or prisoners not the actual Zentraedi crew. You don't see them because they just weren't shown. Kyron was 60 ft tall, how would you see a little 6 ft human running around his feet (to get stepped on?). without human tutelage, they just aren't given the training.

DR-052 wrote: At the time, Kyron was considered a minor nascence. he was hiding in the jungle somewhere, unknown ... he had NO mechanical or electrical skills what-so-ever! That's what the repair/construction drones on the Robotech Factory are for. ALL Zentraedi repair and maintenance has to be done at a Factory Station (Sentinels book II REF Field Guide pg110) They can do NO repair on their own. According to the information available, Kyron had what little operational equipment he could scavenge. once that runs out he's just a giant on foot with a club.

Palladium RPGs and Jack McKinney novels are non-canon. I wish I could remember whose signature this was on robotech.com, but it said something like "if it didn't happen in the animation... it didn't necessarily happen." That is exactly correct. Nowhere in the animation was any mention made of the Zentraedi being programmed to be dumbstruck by routine maintenance and repair, nor did it make any mention of Khyron employing human tech engineers. Those are interpretations by non-canon, third party sources, which directly contradict Episodes 35 and 36.

DR-052 wrote: The Zentraedi were not programmed with ANY repair skills what-so-ever. You remember when Max flew his VF through Breetai's Flag Bridge and shattered the glass bubble? After that you never saw It get repaired, the bubble was always jagged shards after that. It's not because he wanted it that way, they didn't know how to replace it, NO mechanical or electrical skills what-so-ever! That's what the repair/construction drones on the Robotech Factory are for. ALL Zentraedi repair and maintenance has to be done at a Factory Station (Sentinels book II REF Field Guide pg110) They can do NO repair on their own.
So, even if Kyron had one of those wrecked spaceships as a base, he couldn't use it, he can't repair it.

Let's draw a parallel. If Honda were to include a spare rear-view mirror with every car, that would be a needless expense, so they don't do it. There's no need to. A Veritech is not going to crash through your rear-view mirror. The reason Breetai didn't have the canopy replaced is because he didn't have a replacement canopy.

Q: Do you have a spare rear-view mirror in your car?
A: Of course not, it's not like a Veritech is going to crash through it.
Q: Assuming a Veritech DID crash through your rear-view mirror, what would you do about it?
A: When I wasn't busy with more pressing matters (such as capturing an SDF-1 mostly intact), I would go to the nearest Auto Zone (or Robotech Factory Satellite) and get it replaced.

DR-052 wrote: They taught some of his crew (Officers, Pilots, or some of the more intelligent foot soldiers) some of those skills

Suppose you wanted a new car stereo. You're intelligent enough to pull the old one out, and install the new one. Even if you've never done it before, you are capable of figuring it out. Or suppose you had to change a tire. You don't just stand there staring at your flat tire saying "duuuuuuuuuh... Hodor?" You change the tire.

Now suppose your car needed a new transmission system. That might be beyond your capabilities, so you'd have to take your car to the local shop to get it replaced.

However intelligent you are, the Zentraedi are TREMENDOUSLY moreso. Moments after arriving at Earth, and discovering human culture, they get on the horn and talk to Gloval and the Bridge Bunnies IN HUMAN LANGUAGE. Perhaps you would say that Fleet Commanders, such as Breetai and Exedore, are programmed with the ability to learn alien languages quickly. Perhaps Intelligence Officers, also, such as Rico, Bron, and Conda. Fair enough, but then we have Miriya. She was bred as a Fighter Pilot, a fierce warrior, without mercy, your very own definition of evil... Yet she spontaneously decides to go covert undercover secret agent style and infiltrate the SDF-1 to assassinate Max. She, too, speaks to every human she encounters in their own language.

Why would Miriya need the programmed ability to understand alien languages? She wouldn't. It wasn't befitting her station. The only thing in her programming would be to kill and destroy. So the long and short of this is that their ability to understand the human language was not programmed. It was something they were intelligent enough to figure out on their own.

As intelligent as Zentraedi are, they surely are crafty enough to perform routine maintenance themselves, as Khyron's crew is seen doing. They can do their Zentraedi equivalents of installing a new stereo or changing a tire themselves. Their equivalents of ship transmissions, however, are something they would need to get done at the shop. Not necessarily because they didn't have anyone who knew anything about transmissions, but because they didn't carry around spare transmissions with them on every ship. If every ship had a spare transmission onboard, that says the transmissions are expected to fail. If every ship had two faulty transmission systems onboard, that would be neither cost-efficient nor confidence-inspiring. As the Zentraedi ships are expected to deploy for extended periods of time without maintenance, most essential systems are presumably low-maintenance, or even maintenance-free, and that is why they don't have a bunch of maintenance guys onboard. Not because they are programmed to be stupid, but simply because they weren't necessary to have. However, as Khyron's crew demonstrates, they are fully capable of solving maintenance and repair issues themselves, if need be. Without the fantastical, non-canon interpretations of Zentraedi being unable to do repairs on their own, there is no need for fantastical, non-canon explanations such as human tech engineers working for Khyron. It just didn't happen in the animation, which means it just didn't happen.

We could have the same discussion about Thinking Caps. That has been a hot topic in the past on rtdc, but the bottom line is that it wasn't mentioned in the animation, and in fact, we see numerous occasions in New Gen when Scott and his band are piloting Alphas or Betas without helmets on. Bad news for Thinking Cap fans: it didn't happen.

DR-052, I haven't read all those manuals to RPG's yet, nor the novels nor the comics. Part of me is curious, another part prefers the freedom of imagination over knowing what has been written by others. Besides, should Sentinels somehow be produced after all, the production team will be more likely to use the unfinished scripts and existing footage as raw material for the reboot and imagine the rest themselves than to exegesise all the other stuff. We're talking about fiction, not theology

An experienced Zentraedi officer would have been better suited than human soldiers to place himself in the minds of Zentraedi rebels, predict their likely courses of action and come up with plans to prevent them from doing so. Exedore was already stationed at New Macross City and questioned Khyron's behaviour already in # 7. Already from #1 he fucntioned as Breetai's tactical officer: his job was to observe and then suggest the best course of action. He, or some other Zentraedi tactical officers - would Breetai have been the only commander with a tactical officer? - surely would have been able to consult on the Malcontents.

The last ten episodes of Macross Saga show Zentraedi of both sizes. Was Breetai the really the only pro-human Zentraedi who remained 'macronian' and military?

You spend a lot of effort on pointing out that Breetai, as overall commander, is not supposed to deal with an uprising himself. That does not explain why other Zentraedi could not have helped out.

(what possibly could explain is the civilian government declaring that non-micronized Zentraedi would have to choose between remaing in space or micronizing after all, but that is fan speculation- and/or fiction)

Finally, take real life into consideration. America is still the world's largest political power and largest economy and has the most effective army. Yet the combination of mixed results in the Middle East between 2002-2007 and the 2007-2008 credit crunch means that the USA - or at least its voters - have lost interest in military operations abroad.
We can discuss endlessly wether it would be strategically sound for the USA to become an isolationist country again or if it is better if they took care of Islamic State, Putin and perhaps China's expansionism in the South-Chinese Sea first. Doesn't change the situation that the interior polical and economic situation makes it more likely for America to cut down on military expenditure and operations.

Earth directly after the Zentraedi war is in far worse shape than present-day America - how likely are politicians and civilians to cheer a mission at the other end of the universe? They don't see the Masters, they do suffer from the Malcontents. Would many US citizens not opt for dealing with criminals on US soil and perhaps Mexican drug cartels over the more abstract threat of IS on the other side of the ocean? Rational or irrational, many would prefer dealing with the visible immediate danger over a possible but not yet experienced danger.

Most of your arguments take for granted that things will happen as they have been described in those manuals. The characters in # 27-36 don't know what will happen. They don't consider the future as set in stone.

Peter Young wrote: DR-052, I haven't read all those manuals to RPG's yet, nor the novels nor the comics. Part of me is curious, another part prefers the freedom of imagination over knowing what has been written by others...

As a historian, any reference material that is officially published is usable as a source, you can't say "it's not cannon" if it's published, this does not extend to comic books or novels, but any reference book (yes this can lead to some discrepancies - as do many history books). The best part of the RPG is that it is part of the larger Palladium "Multi-verse" which includes Rifts, a multi-dimensional system. What that means is; if multiple dimensions do exist then every thing that can happen does happen - somewhere/when. So if you don't like something, you don't have to accept it, in your universe, but it does happen elsewhere. So your still free to imagine other outcomes/events and they are still valid, just not in the timeline/universe of the actual official storyline. This also means that all those discrepancies are all valid, just in different universes.

Peter Young wrote: An experienced Zentraedi officer would have been better suited than human soldiers to place himself in the minds of Zentraedi rebels, predict their likely courses of action and come up with plans to prevent them from doing so. Exedore was already stationed at New Macross City and questioned Khyron's behaviour already in # 7. Already from #1 he fucntioned as Breetai's tactical officer: his job was to observe and then suggest the best course of action. He, or some other Zentraedi tactical officers - would Breetai have been the only commander with a tactical officer? - surely would have been able to consult on the Malcontents... Breetai, as overall commander, is not supposed to deal with an uprising himself. That does not explain why other Zentraedi could not have helped out..

Nobody said they didn't. it is not directly addressed, but it does say that most Zentraedi did join the RDF and were later transferred to the REF, some (officers only) joined the S.C. These troops were not generally retrained as Mecha pilots (except a few officers and Fighter Pod pilots) which is why the REF produced the Z-1 & Z-2 but ALL were micronized (even Breetai). Some did participate in tracking down renegades (in the scene after they captured the Factory it shows them restarting the Battle-pod line, this was to supply replacement equipment for the full size troops they were using until they micronized them). But, no, Breetai was the Fleet Admiral, he was not directly involved in hunting down rouge Zentraedi renegades. That's someone else's job, it would have been delegated. Just as Admiral Nimitz didn't go to Iwo Jima with a flamethrower to burn out Japanese pillboxes. Breetai was too busy with Rick and Lisa trying to plan the Expedition. Something else you fail to note is that they were tracking down "fellow" Zentraedi. Recall that when Miriya was flying with her new husband, she was less than willing to kill "her own people" and talked him into taking extra, and dangerous, steps to not kill the pod pilots. It can be argued that the worst troops to send out would be other "fellow" Zentraedi who may just as well join the renegades as kill them. Better to send out humans to "retake" the occupied areas of their home world.

DR-052 wrote: As a historian, any reference material that is officially published is usable as a source, you can't say "it's not cannon" if it's published, this does not extend to comic books or novels, but any reference book (yes this can lead to some discrepancies - as do many history books).

After HG taking the liberty to declaring the stories they no longer liked 'non-canon', that particular argument may have lost some value

I like the original three Star Wars movies and the Marvel Star Wars comics. I would have prefered George Lucas not making the 1999-2005 movies - in fiction, imagining things for yourselve can be more fun. Not knowing what the cavemonster looked like in 'The Empire strikes back' made the creature way more scary then when he was actually shown in the nineties restyled version.

A friend of mine knows a lot of the 'extended universe'. When Disney bought Star Wars from George Lucas, everything not made by Lucas himself got declared 'non'-canon'. Comic book companies change 'facts' al the tome, it's called 'retconning'. And does DC not every thirty years reboot its entire universe?

You seem to use the Palladium books the same way nineteenth century historians, Leopold von Ranke in particular, regarded sources: objects that give you direct information of the past. In the second half of the twentieth century, a philosophy called 'postmodernism' stated that there was no factual truth at all, everything was a matter of interpretation and/or narrative.
Scholars seem to have moved away from postmodernism by now, but that something has been published does not necessarily mean it is a source. It is up to historians to decide what is relevant source material or not. History often tells more about its writers than about what actually occured.
By the way, not even Von Ranke considered anything a source just because it had been written. A historian still has to evaluate it beforehand, if only to avoid confusing fiction with actual events. A cookbook has been published, but unless it has been used by a company cook during a campaign, it is irrelevant to a military historian. And even then if said military historian studies everyday soldier life.

But, no, Breetai was the Fleet Admiral, he was not directly involved in hunting down rouge Zentraedi renegades. That's someone else's job, it would have been delegated. Just as Admiral Nimitz didn't go to Iwo Jima with a flamethrower to burn out Japanese pillboxes. Breetai was too busy with Rick and Lisa trying to plan the Expedition.

Sources or no sources (alltough, with the original Robotech series no declared non-canon yet, it is likely to be one), Lisa and Rick were not even informed about a mission into space untill #36. Zentraedi rebels had been causing trouble already since #28, if I recall correctly.

It did not have to be Breeatai. Zentraedi did not even have to fight the Malcontents themselves. What I find strange is that no one even seems to consider consulting Zentraedi on the Malcontents.

Besides, Breetai had Khyron's pilots shot when they tried to disturb Exedore's peace mission in #27, so Zentraedi are not unwilling to kill insurbordinates. Mirya marrying Max meant that she clearly had dropped aspects of the Zentraedi life style - her plea for not killing Zentraedi might have been because it would make peace possible (the argument she used to Max). And Khyron always used as much violence on his fellow Zentraedi as on other races. From the moment Khyron took charge of the rebels, they could be as dangerous to the peaceloving Zentraedi as to humans.

Peter Young wrote: It did not have to be Breeatai. Zentraedi did not even have to fight the Malcontents themselves. What I find strange is that no one even seems to consider consulting Zentraedi on the Malcontents.

Nobody ever said they didn't. Zentraedi officers were allowed into the RDF (and some even into the S.C.). Some of them were undoubtedly consulted for intelligence.

DR-052 wrote:

Peter Young wrote: It did not have to be Breeatai. Zentraedi did not even have to fight the Malcontents themselves. What I find strange is that no one even seems to consider consulting Zentraedi on the Malcontents.

Nobody ever said they didn't. Zentraedi officers were allowed into the RDF (and some even into the S.C.). Some of them were undoubtedly consulted for intelligence.

And this is the crux of the matter. Khyron's attack was either a complete surprise, or the RDF was unable to respond. In either case, why were they so concerned with an expeditionary mission when they couldn't even keep their home turf secure? It doesn't make military sense. I guess it could be proposed that they knew Earth was more or less a lost cause, and the REF was an act of desperation. Still, the REF was strong enough to liberate several planets from the Invid Regent, and then return to liberate Earth. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, after all, and if it were up to me I would have opted to defend Earth.