by the fans for the fans

I knew there was a reason I never liked KFC.

Do you like horses? We keep horses locked up in caged pens with barely enough room to turn around, standing in piles of their own poop, then we strap them up with ropes and leather and use them to haul heavy loads, or pull heavy machinery, or even ride around on them like they are some sort of trophy. The lucky ones get a few hours of community every night in a fenced-in outdoor area, but they are prisoners with no hope of escape or a better life of freedom.

We may even love them, but they are slaves.

Alpha Bravo wrote: Do you like horses? We keep horses locked up in caged pens with barely enough room to turn around, standing in piles of their own poop, then we strap them up with ropes and leather and use them to haul heavy loads, or pull heavy machinery, or even ride around on them like they are some sort of trophy. The lucky ones get a few hours of community every night in a fenced-in outdoor area, but they are prisoners with no hope of escape or a better life of freedom.

We may even love them, but they are slaves.

Stockholm Syndrome

Alpha Bravo wrote: Right. The Zentraedi were necessary to protect the Masters and their society from the wrath of the Invid. That doesn't make the Zentraedi evil.

The RM produced the Zentraedi before they defoliated Optera , the invid were peaceful harmless herbivore then. It was the Zentraedi who defoliated Optera, yet another known planet of sentient beings whipped out by them. The Zentraedi were the Masters instrument of conquest, used on all the Sentinels planets.

LadyGrimes wrote: I never thought of the Zentraedi as "evil" due to the simple fact that they were brainwashed and didn't know any better. Of course some had more awareness than others but still kept them in the dark for their own reasoning.

That's just it, they weren't "brainwashed" they were produced that way. As Zentraedi, they weren't born, raised one way and then "brainwashed" into something else. They were more like "Tanks" from 'Space-Above-and-Beyond'. They were grown in a tank, to full size, their blank brains programmed by a computer with the skills that particular trooper was going to need to fight with, then they wake up ready for action. Like a biological AI combat robot. Some had different skills than others. the basic pod pilot had piloting, radar operations, radio basic, etc... they did not have flower arraignment, basket weaving or even cooking or dancing. They ate grey tasteless protein nutrient paste (soylent green of sorts). Why? #1 it kept them alive & #2 ... "why do you need a #2, its what you eat." that's all the knew. Recon Pilots were programed with slightly more skills, Cyclops piloting, encryption/decoding, intelligence analysis, etc... why? they needed those skills (that's what the 3 guys Rick nearly killed were), not just "Pod Pilots" but "Military Specialist". Kyron was a grown and programmed "Officer" who had even more programming (though as anybody who uses MS can tell you programming may go awry - lol) "High Commanders", Breetai and Dolza were even more advanced clones meant to liaison with the Masters and given even more knowledge (as Breetai said to his astonished troops after taking down Ricks Veritech in hand-to-hand "I am not built as weakly as you"). Yes, the Tyrolean citizens (both left behind on the planet and those in the mother ships) were basically similar to humans with similar societies, but these were not Zentraedi. You will note that even Breetai and Dolza were astonished and amazed at kissing "Is this the result of protoculture?!!!" they had no knowledge of this. It wasn't believed (by the Masters) to be necessary for their jobs. Note also that there is no mention what-so-ever of the Zentraedi onboard the masters mother ships or on Tyrol. "The invid are invading! Where are the Zentraedi to protect us?!" never said. actually the Bioroids you see on Tyrol are the old "Worker" version carrying hand drums, the Masters didn't even bother leaving the more advanced combat models to protect their home world. The Masters sent the Zentraedi out to conquer, the average man-on-the-street Tyrolean had no knowledge of them. they were protected by 2nd rate Bioroid troops not Zentraedi.

Alpha Bravo wrote: Just as many DIDN'T turn back into mercs and bandits.

No, almost all of them did, most couldn't make it in normal human society. Most of Breetai's troops were micronized and left with the REF as members of the REF/Sentinels, they even designed a new series of Mecha just for them, The Z-1 & Z-2, a small Battle-Pod an Officers-Pod with controls similar enough to the old pods that they required minimal training to use, but were far closer to human Destroids/Battloids to be compatible with human/REF/Sentinel operations. They also rebuilt the Cyclops into the Z-3 (basically identical but with micronized controls and the escape pod replaced with an Alpha-Beta Leagious attached - like the Horizont). Many stayed on Earth, trying to make it, until after the REF left but they mostly turned bandit or merc. Many joined the EBSIS military, who developed limited Mecha technology (mostly from gathered old Zentraedi scrap pieced together and actively hired full size Zentraedi to pilot them) others (full and micronized) moved to the jungles of South America and S.E. Asia to hide and run as bandits or mercs. some survived until the Invid came. The Invid were not concerned as much with these sectors because most of the Flower-of-Life spores took root in North America and this was where they concentrated their occupation force, to guard the flower. (Stray Zentraedi of RM Bioroids sticking their head up risked having it blown off without warning of-course).

Alpha Bravo wrote: If any given percentage of mercs and bandits are enough to condemn an entire race, then you could just as easily call all of humanity evil by the exact same reasoning.

No, the "Race" was just modified clones of the Tyrolean race. (Exedore explained that) They weren't a "race" of their own. their 'society' most certainly was "Evil" by the definitions set out by the Nurnberg trials. An entire culture produced for the sole purpose of conquest and "carrying out and aggressive war" (what Karl Doenitz was convicted of, and sentenced to "Life".) not a small percentage taking up Merc/bandit but the majority of those not actively employed by the REF as combat troops doing so. by the time of the SC there were virtually no "civilian" Zentraedi left, it just wasn't in them. We have that issue in human society, Greg 'Pappy' Boyington, one of the greatest Aces in U.S. (an certainly USMC) History, and one of my personal heroes, horrible life as a civilian though, just couldn't make it, failed marriages, drinking, failed businesses, did some boxing and movie consulting to make it by, but even this, some of the former members of his squadron were upset by the TV show he made with Robert Conrad (one of my first memories as a child - loved it) even before the war he had similar problems when he left the Corp the first time before joining the Flying Tigers. there were others. Not everyone is cut out for peace and tranquility, they just need conflict to blossom and when that's taken away it's like a flower without water, they just wilt. That's the Zentraedi programming. It's designed specifically to produce that mentality, leave out all domestic knowledge. That's why Male and Female troops were on different ships and did not interact. The very knowledge that they even could was left out of their programming.

Alpha Bravo wrote: He gave that order because his own people were very quickly {becoming} contaminated, and he wanted to put a definitive stop to it before it destroyed his entire society. Just as you would call an exterminator if a colony of fire ants was invading your kitchen from the backyard.

not the same thing - though maybe in his own mind - that was, again, the mindset at Auschwitz, was that not Evil?! Again I reference Nuremberg. (for both the actions of the Fleet/camp guards and Dolza/Hoss - hence "Diabolic Evil")

Alpha Bravo wrote: Dolza believed that the Zentraedi should be ruled BY the Zentraedi.

No he thought that HE should replace the Masters and rule the universe.

Alpha Bravo wrote: That is not evil, and any given sovereign country would want the same thing.

Not the same thing, again, the Zentraedi were not some separate race taken over by the Masters as "salves" they were "Tyrolean" genetic stock, modified and engendered by the Masters Scientists and used to produce clones for a specific purpose - "Conquest" - not "Defense" as I said - biological AI weapons which went off their programming, should the RDF's Reflex missiles be given sovereignty? what about the SC Reflex Security Droids, Like the one Dana knocked off the back of that jeep? They were made as tools/weapons nothing more, the "contamination" was "free will', The knowledge not programmed into them, that they could do something else.

LadyGrimes wrote: Now I don't recall seeing that from either Breetai or Dolza tbh.

We weren't "shown" them doing it, but that doesn't mean they didn't do it. I've no doubt that if someone failed Dolza badly (like Kyron actually succeeding in blowing up the SDF-1 and Breetai failing to stop him), he wouldn't ZAAAPPP, Go make another. Breetai seemed just a little scared when he did that fleet recall to prevent Kyron from succeeding. You don't think if he hadn't, Dolza wouldn't have them both reconstituted into "Grey Protein Paste"? Breetai was more lenient - the fact that he didn't ZAAPPP Kyron, several times over, shows that.

Alpha Bravo wrote: ...but they are prisoners with no hope of escape or a better life of freedom.
We may even love them, but they are slaves.

no, they have no hope because they have no sentient intelligence to have hope with. Chickens and horses are not human beings, you may be able to program in a response to stimuli but they can never be taught to read or wright, much less use a computer or evaluate a movie. Why does a cat sit and stare at a mouse hole all freaking day? Is he a prisoner, trapped there and force to sit and watch that hole? No, He's not smart enough not to. His limited memory and sense of smell tells him there's a mouse there and he's to dumb to think "hey, instead of stetting here staring at this hole, I could go read War and Peace" They are not sentient beings. They have no real since of self awareness. A Horse is not a prisoner, he's "kept", here's food, here's shelter, doesn't have to go forage for food in a drought and yes, idiots who leave them standing around in their own poop are evil, that's what stable hands are for, pay them, DUH!
(sorry for the length - trying to get everything in)

and what are you? a cat?

DR-052 wrote: We weren't "shown" them doing it, but that doesn't mean they didn't do it. I've no doubt that if someone failed Dolza badly (like Kyron actually succeeding in blowing up the SDF-1 and Breetai failing to stop him), he wouldn't ZAAAPPP, Go make another. Breetai seemed just a little scared when he did that fleet recall to prevent Kyron from succeeding. You don't think if he hadn't, Dolza wouldn't have them both reconstituted into "Grey Protein Paste"? Breetai was more lenient - the fact that he didn't ZAAPPP Kyron, several times over, shows that.

Of course they probably could've done it and we wouldn't know, but that's why I was comparing their behavior to that of Khyron's.
They weren't as unstable as he was, and I know in the books it's partially due to his addiction to the dried invid flower petals he ingests. Actually if its even accepted as canon that would explain so much about his behavior, and I would know this being I myself am a recovering addict from narcotics.

He has two addictions: war and the dried flower petals, and when he doesn't get that "high" so to speak he becomes strung out and highly unstable, capable of anything. While Breetai and Dolza only wanted to capture the SDF-1, Khyron wanted to destroy it. Not because he had to but because he wanted to, even if it was for a sick thrill. He was hell bent set on destroying that ship and killing every single micronian inside it. so compared to Breetai and Dolza, Khyron was a druggie acting out, plain and simple.

LadyGrimes wrote: I know in the books it's partially due to his addiction to the dried invid flower petals he ingests ...
He has two addictions: war and the dried flower petals ...

I've never heard this, where did the Zentraedi have access to flower pedals? They didn't even know exactly what "Protoculture" was. All their equipment was produced in an automated factory with the Protoculture already installed. They couldn't even repair them, were not programed with mecha mechanics (or any other mechanical) skills. that's why Breetai's flag bridge kept the broken glass bubble after the main characters escaped, nobody knew how to fix it. The only source of Protoculture they had any access to were the seeds suspended in the factory and in their own engines, no flowers.

LadyGrimes wrote: While Breetai and Dolza only wanted to capture the SDF-1, Khyron wanted to destroy it. Not because he had to but because he wanted to...

Yes, I said that, Breetai was following orders, Dolza was too, technically, but wanted "whatever's-so-important on that ship" for himself. And, if he had to murder a few billion sentient beings to get it ... oh well. Kyron was just a programming error, circuits misfiring, psyco.

LadyGrimes wrote: Khyron was a druggie acting out, plain and simple.

Yes, but I think his "Drug" was adrenaline from victory, when he lost to the SDF-1 the first time, he snapped, never lost before!!!

DR-052 wrote: I've never heard this, where did the Zentraedi have access to flower pedals? They didn't even know exactly what "Protoculture" was. All their equipment was produced in an automated factory with the Protoculture already installed. They couldn't even repair them, were not programed with mecha mechanics (or any other mechanical) skills. that's why Breetai's flag bridge kept the broken glass bubble after the main characters escaped, nobody knew how to fix it. The only source of Protoculture they had any access to were the seeds suspended in the factory and in their own engines, no flowers.

In the Robotech novels by Jack McKinney it's mentioned several times that Khyron is getting high off the dried invid flowers before going to battle. If you haven't read the novels then I can see why you'd be confused. I was even wondering if that was considered canon tbh

DR-052 wrote: Yes, but I think his "Drug" was adrenaline from victory, when he lost to the SDF-1 the first time, he snapped, never lost before!!!

Don't forget dopamine!

I'm not going to spend half an hour disecting your posts on a point-by-point basis. You simply cannot make generic blanket statements that say the behaviours and personality traits of an individual are shared unanimously across an entire race as a whole. Such racial stereotyping may be inherent basic human instinct, but reasoning, intelligence, and common sense should be enough to raise you above such unenlightened deductions.

So Dolza wanted to overthrow the Robotech Masters, and become the Master. You are proving my point and you don't even realize it. How does wanting to be his own master make Dolza evil? It doesn't. Aladdin's Genie wanted to be his own master, and that didn't make him evil. Similarly to the Zentraedi and the Robotech Masters, when the Lamp was in Jafar's possession, the Genie had to do as Jafar commanded. That didn't make the Genie evil, either.