by the fans for the fans

Peter Young wrote: ... they did aim for primary school children - those most likely to buy toys.

Well, no, the ones the idiot sales guy thought would be, I was a teen, and had my own money (helping my Grandmother) and would have bought action figures, etc - later ('90s) my little brother got a die-cast Super Veritech, I was so envious, I wanted one too but he got it at a garage sale or something, never found another one.

Peter Young wrote: G. I. Joe.

G.i. Joe was originally a 12" (Male "Barbie") with uniforms of all 4 branches, guns, vehicles and even a Mercury capsule (my uncle had one). The 3.75" line (which I had - as a teen) was a revamp with more characters and a fleshed out background. we never considered them as "kids toys"

Peter Young wrote: (Singing Voice): "ROBOTECH! To the rescuuueee!!!!"

(male voice: Help the RDF defeat evil Bretai !'

Right, most toy promoters have no clue what they area doing, and no business doing it. Like the stupid Battletech cartoon, so stupid, I watched 1 episode ... well part of one. When I was a teen, I was at a hobby store and found a new game, on the back was pictures of Veritechs, a Gladiator, a Raider X, an Excalibur and a Male Officer Pod! I thought "Robotech as a game!" and bought it. It was of-course Battletech, but the game Is so good that I've been playing ever since. I was really peeved when HG started crying "they got my pail and shovel waaaaahhh!" Instead of making a deal to share titles on the RalPartha minis and promote both (which would let me and other fans keep playing both and getting minis) they had to fight like babies in a sand box and ruin it for everybody. reality check - neither one of them "created" it so the "creative property" doesn't belong to either of them! they were both profiting of someone else's creativity. (off soapbox) just another case of corporate types looking for a buck but not caring to know their customers.

Peter Young wrote: DR-52, I agree with you. They should have thought things through beforehand and realize Robotech would be better off if targeted for an older audience. instead, they aimed for the same age group as He-Man, Transformers and G. I. Joe. The A & E box set contains a promotion real as well as toy commecercials'.

(Singing Voice): "ROBOTECH! To the rescuuueee!!!!"

(male voice: Help the RDF defeat evil Bretai !'

It seems that advertisers are not required to know the synopsis of the series of which they try to sell the toys.

But they did aim for primary school children - those most likely to buy toys. Hence the dependancy on Matchbox.

At the risk of Macek-bashing: was he not supposed to be an entertainmentmarketeer before he joint-ventured with HG to create Robotech?

GAAAH, I remember those toy commercials. Breetai was NOT evil! He was just like Gloval, only on the other side of the conflict. After gaining a mutual respect for each other, they even joined forces to defeat Dolza, for the good of both their people. If anyone was evil, it was Khyron. And even that is debatable, he was simply a die-hard Zentraedi patriot. That's what makes the Macross Saga so compelling, there is no clear-cut good vs evil, just a matter of differing agendas and perspectives.

DR-052 wrote: Right, most toy promoters have no clue what they area doing, and no business doing it. Like the stupid Battletech cartoon, so stupid, I watched 1 episode ... well part of one. When I was a teen, I was at a hobby store and found a new game, on the back was pictures of Veritechs, a Gladiator, a Raider X, an Excalibur and a Male Officer Pod! I thought "Robotech as a game!" and bought it. It was of-course Battletech, but the game Is so good that I've been playing ever since. I was really peeved when HG started crying "they got my pail and shovel waaaaahhh!" Instead of making a deal to share titles on the RalPartha minis and promote both (which would let me and other fans keep playing both and getting minis) they had to fight like babies in a sand box and ruin it for everybody. reality check - neither one of them "created" it so the "creative property" doesn't belong to either of them! they were both profiting of someone else's creativity. (off soapbox) just another case of corporate types looking for a buck but not caring to know their customers.

Harmony Gold and FASA fighting over intellectual property that didn't belong to either of them was one of the highlights of the series.

Also, according to an article I read, FASA approached Studio Nue to ask them to help redesign the mecha in Battletech/Mechwarrior games. Studio Nue, of course, were the ones who designed the mecha in the first place. Can we say WHOOPS

DR-052 wrote: I was really peeved when HG started crying "they got my pail and shovel waaaaahhh!" Instead of making a deal to share titles on the RalPartha minis and promote both (which would let me and other fans keep playing both and getting minis) they had to fight like babies in a sand box and ruin it for everybody. reality check - neither one of them "created" it so the "creative property" doesn't belong to either of them! they were both profiting of someone else's creativity. (off soapbox) just another case of corporate types looking for a buck but not caring to know their customers.

Yeah that is kind of silly when you think about it, therefore the sandbox analogy works well. They'd be better off sharing and working together to profit off somebody else's creativity

Alpha Bravo wrote: ... Breetai was NOT evil! He was just like Gloval, only on the other side of the conflict. After gaining a mutual respect for each other, they even joined forces to defeat Dolza, for the good of both their people. If anyone was evil, it was Khyron. And even that is debatable, he was simply a die-hard Zentraedi patriot. That's what makes the Macross Saga so compelling, there is no clear-cut good vs evil, just a matter of differing agendas and perspectives.

In absolute terms, in the beginning, all Zentraedi were evil (programed that way by the RM) Breetai and Exedore broke their programming, in the end they became Scrupulous (good, going by the RPG stats, originally Aberrant - neutral) and joined the RDF. Dolza was Diabolic from the start "kill kill destroy just for kicks!" Kyron was just a Psycho, he only cared about winning, nothing else (in the end not even his own life or Azonia's) mattered to him (listed as Miscreant evil). In game terms: Breetai and Exedore: neutral-selfish to begin with changed to Scrupulous Good (Chaotic or Neutral Good in D&D Terms - they were a good influence on each other), Dolza: Diabolic Evil (Chaotic Evil in D&D terms) and Kyron: Miscreant Evil (Neutral Evil in D&D Terms) with Psychosis: obsession to destroy the SDF-1 at all cost. remember, his orders were to "capture" the SDF-1 & Breetai had to step in on several occasions (once directly with the fleet auto-recall button) to prevent him from succeeding.

LadyGrimes wrote: Yeah that is kind of silly when you think about it, therefore the sandbox analogy works well. They'd be better off sharing and working together to profit off somebody else's creativity

exactly

DR-052 wrote: In absolute terms, in the beginning, all Zentraedi were evil (programed that way by the RM) Breetai and Exedore broke their programming, in the end they became Scrupulous (good, going by the RPG stats, originally Aberrant - neutral) and joined the RDF. Dolza was Diabolic from the start "kill kill destroy just for kicks!" Kyron was just a Psycho, he only cared about winning, nothing else (in the end not even his own life or Azonia's) mattered to him (listed as Miscreant evil). In game terms: Breetai and Exedore: neutral-selfish to begin with changed to Scrupulous Good (Chaotic or Neutral Good in D&D Terms - they were a good influence on each other), Dolza: Diabolic Evil (Chaotic Evil in D&D terms) and Kyron: Miscreant Evil (Neutral Evil in D&D Terms) with Psychosis: obsession to destroy the SDF-1 at all cost. remember, his orders were to "capture" the SDF-1 & Breetai had to step in on several occasions (once directly with the fleet auto-recall button) to prevent him from succeeding.

I'd have to disagree. Zentraedi were bred and conditioned to be an efficient military structure. That does not make them any more evil than the United States Army, or France or Britain or Russia or whoever you want to substitute as the example.

You could say the Masters were evil, but the Zentraedi were simply doing what any military organization would do: follow the orders of their leaders.

Since you mentioned Dolza, I'll briefly comment on him also. During the episode where Rick and Lisa were captured, Dolza spoke with Exedore about uncovering the truth of their heritage. He implied that he did not entirely trust the Masters, and may have been plotting some sort of coup once he knew for sure that they were not honourable in their intents and actions. This gives even Dolza a certain nobility and righteousness, as he cared more for the best interests of his own people than for the orders of leaders he didn't trust. I doubt he shared such thoughts with anyone but Exedore.

Alpha Bravo wrote: I'd have to disagree. Zentraedi were bred and conditioned to be an efficient military structure. That does not make them any more evil than the United States Army, or France or Britain or Russia or whoever you want to substitute as the example.

Not so, the U.S., British and even Russian/Soviet military's start with civilians and make them soldiers. their basic "programing" is from a civilian background. The Zentradi are produced as full grown clones with only the memories programmed into their brains, how to pilot a battle pod, how to call in fire etc... They were produced by the Masters to Conquer the universe and kill/destroy any resistance. Evil people (who defoliated an entire planet inhabited by innocent herbivores just for power) programmed them. That's why so many of them who went over to Earth, captivated by "something new", turned back into Mercs and Bandits, they didn't know how else to make a living. Kill and take!

Alpha Bravo wrote: Since you mentioned Dolza, I'll briefly comment on him also. During the episode where Rick and Lisa were captured, Dolza spoke with Exedore about uncovering the truth of their heritage. He implied that he did not entirely trust the Masters, and may have been plotting some sort of coup once he knew for sure that they were not honourable in their intents and actions. This gives even Dolza a certain nobility and righteousness, as he cared more for the best interests of his own people than for the orders of leaders he didn't trust. I doubt he shared such thoughts with anyone but Exedore.

He gave the order to bombard a planet and kill 10 billion people, if that's not "diabolic" what is? He was plotting something, Kill the Masters and become the Master.

DR-052 wrote: Not so, the U.S., British and even Russian/Soviet military's start with civilians and make them soldiers. their basic "programing" is from a civilian background. The Zentradi are produced as full grown clones with only the memories programmed into their brains, how to pilot a battle pod, how to call in fire etc... They were produced by the Masters to Conquer the universe and kill/destroy any resistance. Evil people (who defoliated an entire planet inhabited by innocent herbivores just for power) programmed them. That's why so many of them who went over to Earth, captivated by "something new", turned back into Mercs and Bandits, they didn't know how else to make a living. Kill and take!

Right. The Zentraedi were necessary to protect the Masters and their society from the wrath of the Invid. That doesn't make the Zentraedi evil.

Just as many DIDN'T turn back into mercs and bandits. If any given percentage of mercs and bandits are enough to condemn an entire race, then you could just as easily call all of humanity evil by the exact same reasoning.

DR-052 wrote: He gave the order to bombard a planet and kill 10 billion people, if that's not "diabolic" what is? He was plotting something, Kill the Masters and become the Master.

He gave that order because his own people were very quickly becomming contaminated, and he wanted to put a definitive stop to it before it destroyed his entire society. Just as you would call an exterminator if a colony of fire ants was invading your kitchen from the backyard.

Dolza believed that the Zentreadi should be ruled BY the Zentraedi. That is not evil, and any given sovereign country would want the same thing.

I can see some good arguments coming from both sides on the subject, so I will only say that "evil" is a matter of perspective in this case. I never thought of the Zentraedi as "evil" due to the simple fact that they were brainwashed and didn't know any better. Of course some had more awareness than others but still kept them in the dark for their own reasoning.

I won't say that Dolza was evil either, but rather more "afraid" of the change he was witnessing within the Zentraedi. Therefore he blamed the humans and chose to attack Earth in an effort to show how weak the humans were compared to the Zentraedi. Did his fear make him irrational? Yep. Does it make him evil? Nope.

Khyron on the other hand didn't act out of fear but rather out of hatred, so I would say he was the closest to evil you can get. He was very angry and unstable, even killing his own men. Now I don't recall seeing that from either Breetai or Dolza tbh.

As we saw in the first few episodes of the Sentinels, Tirol had a civilian population. The Zentraedi, as well as the Bioroid pilots, served to protect them as much as they did the Masters. This civilian population was comprised of normal, everyday people, not unlike you and me.

DR-052 sounds like Lynn Kyle calling everyone in the RDF a Warmonger who loves killing. And we all know that is not at all the case.

How would you feel if there was a guy who rounded up everyone in your neighborhood, put them into concentration camps, butchered them daily, ate their flesh, and even used their unborn fetuses to make cornbread? He'd be an evil maniac, right? There is such a guy, who has been doing exactly that for 64 years. Here he is now: