by the fans for the fans

DR-052 wrote: Where are you getting this? The Zentraedi are not some 'poor misunderstood race' They are not really a "race" at all! "...all members of the Zentraedi were artificially created through cloning." They are a "GUN" "the Zentraedi were mainly used to subjugate worlds in the name of the Masters' Empire and destroy any opposition that might threaten their dominance" As I said before, they are like a drone fighter "the Zentraedi were forbidden culture, and were instilled with orders to never interfere with culture-bearing planets and civilizations, again apparently to suppress independent thought and keep an iron loyalty in all the Zentraedi forces" "the Robotech Masters limited their psychological and cultural development so that their entire population would believe that they existed only to wage war". Plane and Simple. I am not "attributing" anything, that is what the text says they are.

Alpha Bravo, DR-052, could you somehow avoid your discussion ending with a 'Godwin'?

If I understand them correctly, DR-052 is saying that after millennnia of genetic engineering and social conditioning, the Zentraedi are more likely to remain warriors/marauders than become civilians. Alpha Bravo is offended by the suggestion that the genetic structure of a race could determine the behaviour of every single individual.

We won't now untill a few generations after the the first Robotech War, will we?
Not untill the majority of the Zentraeadi children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren either spontaneously and out of free will join the army or pursuit civilian careers?

We only know about Dana and Maya.
But since their father was a human soldier and they both grew up in military environments, these sisters are not helpful in determining wether being a Zentraedi warrior is nurture or nature.

Peter Young wrote: If I understand them correctly, DR-052 is saying that after millennnia of genetic engineering and social conditioning, the Zentraedi are more likely to remain warriors/marauders than become civilians. Alpha Bravo is offended by the suggestion that the genetic structure of a race could determine the behaviour of every single individual.

We won't now untill a few generations after the the first Robotech War, will we?
Not untill the majority of the Zentraeadi children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren either spontaneously and out of free will join the army or pursuit civilian careers?

We only know about Dana and Maya.
But since their father was a human soldier and they both grew up in military environments, these sisters are not helpful in determining wether being a Zentraedi warrior is nurture or nature.

If they've been warriors their whole lives then it would make total sense that they wouldn't be able to adapt to civilian life. Not completely anyway. All they've known is violence and so when handling any type of confrontation, they would only be able to handle it the only way they know how and that's with violence. I mean even in the series we see a lot of them becoming bored with civilian life and wanting to return to the old life, because that's what they're familiar with and dare I say comfortable.

With Maya and Dana it's different because they were raised around civilian life and had that nurturing environment. They weren't brought up to be fighters, they chose that path., whereas the Zentraedi didn't choose but rather it was chosen for them.

Peter Young wrote: If I understand them correctly, DR-052 is saying that after millennnia of genetic engineering and social conditioning, the Zentraedi are more likely to remain warriors/marauders than become civilians. Alpha Bravo is offended by the suggestion that the genetic structure of a race could determine the behaviour of every single individual.

We won't now untill a few generations after the the first Robotech War, will we?
Not untill the majority of the Zentraeadi children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren either spontaneously and out of free will join the army or pursuit civilian careers?

We only know about Dana and Maya.
But since their father was a human soldier and they both grew up in military environments, these sisters are not helpful in determining wether being a Zentraedi warrior is nurture or nature.

No, he's saying that the generic engineering and social conditioning makes them all EVIL. I'm glad you bring up Dana and Maia, because shouldn't they both be HALF EVIL?

I'm still not entirely sure what he defines as "evil". It seems that simply being genetically engineered, or socially conditioned, or a member of a military force, qualifies one as evil, because otherwise I can find no other common factor between the extreme example of Khyron compared to numerous other examples such as Breetai, Exedore, Miriya, Rico, Bron, Conda, the bulk of Breetai's fleet who joined the RDF to defeat Dolza, the guy at the concert who asked a nearby Battloid to light his cigarette, the other guy who apologized for almost squishing a human sitting next to him, the skeleton clutching a tiny Minmay doll to his chest, et al

Alpha Bravo, I can understand why you dislike the notion that the Zentraedi had become evil. But I can also understand why DR-052 equates social enginering and social conditioning with a species becoming evil. In many SF stories thoses practices lead to bad creatures.

In the X-men comics a lot of stress is put on being the victim of it. Genosha, the Weapon X project, Mr. Sinister - whoever does it to other people is the evil one. In Dr. Who however, the Daleks - by all accounts subjected to both practices - are almost every time considered evil beyond redemption. And don't forget the Cyber Men.

This not only happens in SF. 'Buffy' and 'Charmed' assumed killing demons and vampires every week was ok, because they were evil.
And what about the orcs in Tolkien stories? According to 'The Silmarillion', they descended from Elves who had the misfortune of being deformed by the original Dark Lord.
The great thing about 'evil' races is that no one cares about killing them.
And apparently a lot of audiences like protagonists who actually kill their opponents (I, on the other hand, prefer Rick Hunter over Scot Bernard).


The great thing about Robotech is that with all three the alien races the question is asked wether they are truly evil or merely the other side. But the reasoning of DR-052 is not uncommon in fiction and among fanbases.

Peter Young wrote: And apparently a lot of audiences like protagonists who actually kill their opponents (I, on the other hand, prefer Rick Hunter over Scot Bernard).

Probably because the audience understands that sometimes you need to kill your opponent, especially if they're dangerous or won't stop coming after you and your people. Sparing them isn't always an option. That said, Rick Grimes is a perfect example of why you shouldn't let your enemies live. Alpha Bravo would agree. You can't trust your enemies and there's too many lives at risk as long as they're free. The only other option is to jail them and hope some idiot doesn't let them out.

Speaking of hybrid children, I would posit that Scott could be half Zentraedi. He was born in space in 2023, as the Robotech Expeditionary Force (REF) occupied Tirol. As the REF had Micronized Evil Zentraedi Alpha Pilots (MEZAPs) as part of their military force, it's entirely plausible that one of Scott's parents was a Zentraedi.

He surely fits DR-052's psyche profile: A military career soldier, loves to fight, will stop at nothing to complete his mission, socially awkward and emotionally unavailable, and then there's this little bit from Episode 63:



No normal human could have done that. You can even see Lunk lunging forward, presumably as his jaw hits the floor.

He also has an obsessive hatred of all things Invid. If Scott is, indeed, half Zentraedi, that could mean that such hatred is actually genetically engineered into his very being.

Now all that taken into consideration, does any of it make Scott evil?

If one were to ask the Invid, they would say yes. If one were to ask the Human Resistance, they would say no. And in The Shadow Chronicles, Scott was able to overcome his ingrained hatred of Invid, and admit to Ariel, and more importantly, to himself, that he does indeed love her. This is a major turning point in his growth as a character, and flies directly in the face of DR-052's argument that people cannot redeem themselves, and become better than who they once were.

And here's the kicker: Whether or not Scott is half Zentraedi, has absolutely no bearing on my final point, which is this: The only life Scott has ever known, has been one of fighting Invid. He has been socially conditioned into that military culture. Does that make him evil? By DR-052's definition of the word, yes it does.

P.S. If the Robotech cast were to reprise the roles of Walking Dead characters, Scott would absolutely make a great Rick Grimes. He does what needs to be done, despite the fears and misgivings of himself, and of those under his protection. That's not evil, that's courage.

Sorry Lady Grimes,you and I just have a different taste in fiction and antagonists.

Says a guy who as a teenager considered it unlikely that Buffy could kill vampires with her bear hands every week and then go on being a teenager. The main reason I never became a fan
(but I did like Willow/Alyson Hannigan, so I watched a lot of episodes anyway).

One of the first superhero stories I read was Operation: Galactic Storm. I understood - and respected - why some Avengers decided to execute the Supreme Intelligence, but I also understood - and respected - why Captain America afterwords decided to leave the team.
I don't reject every story in which a hero actually kills, but I prefer Storm - willing to kill, but avoiding it - over Wolverine/Punisher/Cable.

I prefer Rick Hunter over Scott Bernard. The latter is an important reason why I don't like 'Next Generation' and 'Shadow Chronicles'.
He kills too easily - I side with Rand.

And I chose not to watch 'The Walking Dead' or 'Game of Thrones'. A high body count does not endear me to brand of fiction.
I even consider not watching 'Dr. Who' anymore.


Oh, Alpha Bravo? You already made it clear you don't agree with DR-052, but untill he actually makes another post on that subject, there's no need to go on. Pointing at another person means three fingers point at yourself.

Peter Young wrote:
And I chose not to watch 'The Walking Dead' or 'Game of Thrones'. A high body count does not endear me to brand of fiction.
I even consider not watching 'Dr. Who' anymore.

I can respect your difference in opinion, but FYI I don't watch TWD because of the high body count, I watch because I love the characters and their story interests me. The series gets a lot of flack because people assume it's about death when it's really about survival and resiliency. I haven't seen GOT yet but it's on my list of series to watch, but I know a lot about it thanks to my friends who are die hard fans and keep me up to date.

BTW just because a character sees the need to kill in order to survive doesn't make them bad or evil, it makes them realistic. Also Rick Hunter could easily turn into a killer if the right buttons were pushed, especially if something happened to Lisa. No character is completely immune from losing it.