by the fans for the fans

Gubaba wrote:

Brooklyn Red Leg wrote:

As for Frontier, I watched the whole series. I will give it props for being beautifully animated, but I found the story (and the fan service) to be as equally vapid as that of The Shadow Chronicles.

Obviosuly, I'm gonna have to disagree. Frontier will certainly never be mistaken for for a Bergman film, but it did have some genuine IDEAS in it, which is more than I can say for Shadow Chronicles. Also the characters in Frontier got a lot more depth than anyone in Shadow Chronicles, but that's to be expected, since it's a lot longer. But even from the beginning, the Frontier characters exhibited actual personalities. Shadow Chronicles' characters didn't.

I think I'd take it a step frurther.

MacF's high production value can be seen in almost every aspect of the production, from the varying types of characters (Not cookie-cutter archetypes) to the orchestral score, even.

I would have to go so far as to say the score could be something ripped from a Hollywood film, even, as Yoko Kanno's work is easily on the same scale.

Another thing is the rather seamless way they incorporated cell-style animation with the CG stuff (I'm thinking of Luca's cockpit, specifically).

Hell, even Klan could be cited. Sure, in Macronized form, she's got a lot of fanservice aspects, but her character's truly a tragic one, and as it turned out, she's one of my favorite characters in the series.

Yeah... MacF has it, where RT:TSC PHAILED...

Viper wrote:

Where did you get that idea?

Okay, so the VF-1 takes certain design elements from the F-14 Tomcat. That's plain to see. But there's absolutely no indication that it's simply built as an interceptor.

What would be the point of a variable fighter that simply acted as a long-range interceptor? Why have Gerwalk or Battroid modes at all?

Why build separate fighters then, if all that makes the difference is the other modes? Sorry, I cannot accept the idea that the Valkyrie is anything other than an Interceptor. The Super Parts were to give it Space Superiority capability, but the base platform isn't geared for that.

Pizza the Hutt wrote:

You kind of contradict your point here because if something is made to intercept then it must engage in a dog fight to maintain air superiority.Too bad those AJAXs and other "air mechas" in southern cross was made with aluminum foil.

Whatever.

Just waiting for you to say something like "A hover tank can take out a Vajra"!

If you consider this some sort of rational debate tactic to engage in left-handed strawman's, we have nothing further to discuss.

As for your defence on fat bag leonard,about being misunderstood,,Gee I guess Emperor Palpatine,Hitler,Imhotep and Osama were misunderstood too and they got their fans so no wonder or shock people worship and admire a waste like leonard.

Reductio ad Hitlerium is the refuge of the weak argument. Have fun debating with yourself.

Gubaba wrote:

Obviosuly, I'm gonna have to disagree.

Disagree all you want, as what I stated was a matter of opinion. As I said, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

Brooklyn Red Leg wrote:

Viper wrote:

Where did you get that idea?

Okay, so the VF-1 takes certain design elements from the F-14 Tomcat. That's plain to see. But there's absolutely no indication that it's simply built as an interceptor.

What would be the point of a variable fighter that simply acted as a long-range interceptor? Why have Gerwalk or Battroid modes at all?

Why build separate fighters then, if all that makes the difference is the other modes? Sorry, I cannot accept the idea that the Valkyrie is anything other than an Interceptor. The Super Parts were to give it Space Superiority capability, but the base platform isn't geared for that.

Okay, then let me throw a counterpoint argument...

If the VF-1 wasn't geared for a Space-Superiority fighter role, then why was it given full atmospheric containment and fusion engines?

Add to that, why does it carry a gunpod for close-quarters fighting? It can't be just to look good in Battroid mode...

And, as to the idea that the Super/Strike packs were to give it space-superiority capability, I have to disagree. The super packs were to enhance the capabilities it already had, with greater speed, menouverability, and missile capacity (Or, an added particle-beam gun, in the case of the strike pack).

The fact that the VF-1 is used as an interceptor doesn't negate the fact that it's primary role was as a fighter, pure and simple.

The 'other' fighter you refer to, if I'm correct, is the one seen on lauch day, and that's simply a plane used for atmospheric flight, while the VF-1s were being developed.

Also please concider the fact that the VF-1 is almost never in a position to "intercept" as the F-14. The Tomcat was designed to attack incoming enemy bombers before the were able to launch anti ship missiles. While it was certianly capable of dogfighting it was not the sort of design that would have been purposly built as a fighter as it has a very large frame and that is a negative thing to have in a dogfight when guns are involved.

The VF-1 is more a Fighter then anything else. It is small, it carries short range missiles (there is no point in the animation where the VF-1 uses it's missiles in a BVR capacity and that is what makes an interceptor). This craft was designed as an "In your face" dogfighter, small manuvorable and armed as such, and as a close air support platform.

As designed with out any additional components or modifications to it's structure, the VF-1 was a fighter.

Viper wrote:

If the VF-1 wasn't geared for a Space-Superiority fighter role, then why was it given full atmospheric containment and fusion engines?

What does this have to do with Air Superiority?

Add to that, why does it carry a gunpod for close-quarters fighting? It can't be just to look good in Battroid mode...

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with Air/Space Superiority.

And, as to the idea that the Super/Strike packs were to give it space-superiority capability, I have to disagree. The super packs were to enhance the capabilities it already had, with greater speed, menouverability, and missile capacity (Or, an added particle-beam gun, in the case of the strike pack).

That 'great maneuverability' is tad overplayed. Yes, it can modify its atmospheric profile to get better maneuverability (swing wings and all), but that does not make it an Air Superiority nor Dog-fighter. High dash-speed isn't all that critical to Air Superiority platforms, btw. Loitering over a battlefield longer is more critical, something the base Valkyrie cannot do all that well: 12 AAM-1s, 1 x 55mm gatling w/200 rounds and a head-mounted laser is shown to overheat does not make an Air Superiority platform.

The fact that the VF-1 is used as an interceptor doesn't negate the fact that it's primary role was as a fighter, pure and simple.

No, it wasn't. It was thrust into that role.

The 'other' fighter you refer to, if I'm correct, is the one seen on lauch day, and that's simply a plane used for atmospheric flight, while the VF-1s were being developed.

No, I mean why develop further lines of Variable Fighters? Unless they are built to fulfill different functions, then its just throwing money to build something 'just because'. If the VF-1 was all that and a bag of chips, why the hell would they have replaced it with the VF-4 Lightning III? Why build the VF-11 Thunderbolt?

STAY TO THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD.

BROOK

If you consider this some sort of rational debate tactic to engage in left-handed strawman's, we have nothing further to discuss.

JUST SAY THE WORD BROOK.. JUST SAY THE WORD.. RTX WILL BE IN A PIZZA DIET.





AND STAY ON TOPIC. DON'T WANT TO SEND THIS THREAD TO THE FODDER.

Brooklyn Red Leg wrote:

Disagree all you want, as what I stated was a matter of opinion. As I said, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

True dat.

And I'll admit that I'm willing to overlook a lot of flaws when it comes to Macross. All I really want are a handful of interesting characters, great action scenes, some good songs, and at least something that will either move me or make me think. Frontier managed to provide all of these things for me. Shadow Chronicles did none.

But again, that's me. Others' mileage may vary.