by the fans for the fans

These are just some of the reasons I prefer Robotech to Macross, so bear with me, and these are just my opinions

anyways... One of the main reasons I prefer Robotech to Macross is the continuation AFTER the macross saga. In the original macross our beloved main characters minmay, hikaru & Misa vanish into space without a trace, never to be seen or heard from again. My thoughts? Uh, I want to know what happened to them! Not to mention just having them disappear into space is kinda silly... but ah well

then came the sentinels which made me *squee* because I got to see my favorite macross saga characters again, with the addition of some new ones. I know some macross fans prefer the original ending and I respect that but it just didnt set well with me. Also, seeing the macross saga characters again was great, especially seeing Rick and Lisa getting married! (sorry minmei fans) I did feel bad for minmei in the Sentinels though.. for many reasons

Anyways now on to the zentraedi. When I first saw Robotech, my main attraction was the zentraedi. Their mecha, armor, uniforms, the whole kabob. They were just so fucking awesome to me and still are. So when I got the chance to see DYRL for the first time I was confused when I didn't recognize any of those designs. Then when I discovered the zentraedi designs had been changed, I was little snooty about it. Breetai and Exedore (Exesedol) looked weird, and not in a good way. And the rest of the zentraedi sans the females, were all bald. It was a major WTF to Aw Man moment for me. I want my classic zentraedi dammit!

And thanks to Robotech, in the sentinels they did keep or try to keep the classic look, even if some of the designs were silly, aka bucket head Breetai lol. there's also a lot story wise in the sentinels I liked when it came to dealing with the zentraedi. I loved that Bron, Rico & Konda became Dana's caretakers. That was sweet, but I didn't like the fact they had to die. That didnt set well with me, and I'm not sure what happened to them in the original macross, but I've heard some things such as they just started drinking all the time..... So yeah I prefer their fate in Robotech

Now as for the zentraedi history in Robotech, they were once "miners" first reaction lol wut? Miners? eh... never liked that idea, to me they should have just been warriors, they're too bad ass to be "miners" so that was just silly..

Another reason I prefer Robotech is the fact it doesnt jump from one universe to another, each story is told as another generation. All the characters are tied with the originals in some way. I can't really explain it, but its just interesting to me that way. I've lurked around Macross and poked my head into it a few times out of curiosity, but I just never got into it. And I did love DYRL sans the zentraedi's skin head look, because the art and animation are gorgeous, but when it comes to story telling I just have to stick with Robotech.

And if I ever did become a Macross fan, I'd only be a fan of the original SDFM series and maybe Macross II, but as for the others? No thanks...

there now you know some of my secrets lol, feel free to turn this into a discussion if you like and Gubaba don't hurt me!

All reasonable points, really. It's all a matter of opinion of course, but those are decent reasons for prefering Robotech.

I like that the SDF-era characters are mostly left be in Macross. Their story was largely resolved with the original series, I don't need to know much more after that's all wrapped up. More adventures with characters you like is always good, of course, but after seeing what the Goku fanaticism did to the Dragonball story in the end and the obsession some Robotech fans seem to have with Rick over all others, I prefer to leave well enough alone. "LOL THEY JUST KINDA DISAPPEARED ONE DAY" is a bit of a cop-out as far as writing them out is concerned, but I'm glad they're not the focus. It allows for fresh stories to be told with original characters instead of being held back by what came before or becoming too continuity heavy.

Macross has a fair bit of internal continuity though, even if it's not always as direct as in Robotech. The only ones linked by characters (outside of SDF/DYRL/Flasback 2012 of course) are Zero with Focker, which I haven't seen yet, and Macross 7 with Max and Milia (who are awesome in it, by the way) and DYRL Exsedol, whereas everything else obviously takes place at different points in time in the same universe with technological continuity (sans MacII which is in line with DYRL but relegated to alternate universe status) and the general overarching themes of the franchise.

Now, for one simple reason that I prefer Macross (and what I've seen of MOSPEADA), though not the only one: the music.

I don't care for any of Minmei's songs. I was sick of her celebrating her debut after about the tenth time, and none of the others are particularly memorable. By contrast, I showed a friend DYRL last week and have been humming the songs since.

I always thought My Boyfriend is a Pilot added an extra layer to Hikaru misinterpreting his and Minmay's relationship, so changing that song so drastically felt like stripping the story and love triangle of some extra depth to me.

The Yellow Dancer songs are somewhat better than the Minmei ones, and I like the BGM of the series on the whole, but it really can't compare to the originals.

As far as the opening themes go, I like Robotech's but it feels a bit "generic epic theme" to me whereas I love all three of the opening themes from the original source series.

And that's before even thinking of mentioning Fire Bomber!


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Extra shiz

There's also the fact that Macross is the original. Almost everything I like from (the Macross portion of) Robotech comes from Macross itself. I'm sure the same would be true of Southern Cross and MOSPEADA if I watched through them all. As much as I try to view Robotech as its own seperate entity, the fact remains that a lot of what makes "the original 85" enjoyable comes from the three original series.

And that, truly, is the contradiction of Robotech for me. I want to enjoy the story presented in it, of the Zentraedi who serve the Robotech Masters who were in battle with the Invid, but I look at the Macross Saga and it's all stuff I liked from Macross itself. I look at MOSPEADA and think "I'd probably enjoy this better as it was originally created". I want to look at it as presented but I just can't.

In the perfect world, Robotech would be rebooted with original character and mecha designs, telling an original story loosely based on the same generational storyline as the current 85 episodes. Heresy I know, but that's how I feel. Either that, or remaining as-is but being some kind of official crossover AU (with appropriate tweaks where it'd help the story).

Looking at Robotech as vague ideas, I like it, but it doesn't stand up to closer scrutiny. I can't reconcile the kitschy fun I had watching the series with the fact that it's really just three other shows slapped together to meet broadcasting standards. Maybe fifteen years ago I could have, but not now.

Okay, HP...I'll take the bait...

Before I start though, I'd like to say that what I have to say is not meant to be insulting to anyone, and shouldn't be taken as such.

(Also...I've told this story before, but I think its necessary for explaining why I like Macross better.)

I'd always been into giant robots. When I was VERY young, in the late '70s, one of my neighbors was a Japanese kid who had a whole bunch of truly awesome robot toys (the only one I was later able to place was Gaiking). He told me they were mostly from cartoons, but I didn't put it all together until later.

When I was ten or so, in the summer of '84, Carl Macek introduced me to Macross, but not in the way you might expect. My mom picked me up a copy of Starlog magazine, because it had a Ghostbusters poster, and there was an ad in in for that HG-produced Macross VHS tape, The ad showed this picture, which I'm sure you're all familiar with:


I kept staring at that picture, trying to figure out what kind of story the series was. The ad said nothing about its Japanese origins, or even giant robots, but that picture entranced me.

That winter, the flimsy little magazine (called "Parade") that comes with the LA Times had an article about Japanese robot toys, and they showed a Valkyrie. The article also talked about Macross, giving a brief (and inaccurate) account of the plot. I read that article over and over and over again...I don't think I threw the magazine away until I left for college.

I got into the Revell Robotech kits, and so when one of my friends told me that a cartoon was starting, I got really excited. He and I watched "Codename: Robotech" together. It didn't take long before I realized that THIS was simply Macross under a different name, and I loved it instantly.

One of my other friends had an old Macross model kit that he hadn't built, and he gave it to me, saying he'd gotten it at a toy store in LA's Little Tokyo area. I started going there as often as my parents would take me. The toys were too expensive, but I got a lot of the models. I was thrown off, though, by some of the names...why was Rick Hunter's Guardian called a "Hikaru Type Gerwalk"? It took a while to figure out that the names were changed.

Then, when Southern Cross started, I figured it was a different series, but I thought it was a sequel...some form of "Macross II." I'd gotten the hang of the Japanese names at this point, so when I went to the toy store looking for "Dana Jenius," I was shocked to find "Jeanne Françaix." I don't remember how long it took, but I figured out eventually that Macross Saga and Masters Saga originally had had nothing to do with each other.

And that was it. My willing suspension of disbelief vanished. I no longer cared about why Dana's hair changed from green to blonde, why the VF-1s had been replaced by Hovertanks, or whether we'd see Rick and Lisa ever again. Robotech wasn't the "real" story. I kept watching, but I felt frustrated with it, because I knew they were changing things.

Then one day, I walked into the toy store - I think Robotech had just finished its run - and there was a model kit of Skull One, but with red trim. It said "HIKARU ICHIJO SPECIAL" and had a label that said "Macross '84 Summer." And that's how I found out about DYRL.

It didn't take too long before one of my friends got me a homemade copy of the movie on VHS and I wore that sucker out, watching it again and again. In Japanese, no subtitles, I couldn't understand what anyone was saying...but I was enthralled.

A couple of years later, Flashback 2012 came out, and I got my hands on that. Sentinels came out a bit later, and it looked cheap and amateurish to me in comparison. After that, Robotech wasn't really on my radar screen anymore (I never got any of the comics, although I did read most of the novels), but I kept up with Macross.

So I can come up with a lot of reasons for why I like Macross better, but that's all after-the-fact justification. Likewise, I can come up with tons of external reasons why I don't like Robotech (mostly involving the actions of HG), but really, it all boils down to one thing: I couldn't accept Robotech as a coherent, connected fictional "world." Macross made more sense to me and appealed to me more.

Well, here comes trouble!

This will be a LONG post, so bail out now!

I actually agree with Happy on some of her basic points, but I'd like to be more specific in relation to moi.

I consider myself both a fan of Robotech and Macross.

I'm actually a longtime fan of "real" anime who took a break to slum with Robotech. Why I did so was first because it was the most accessible version (being "free" with my cable bill for Space: the Imagination Station), but later on, things...happened.

What it boils down to was this: the characters I liked best from the SDF-1 era were the human-friendly male Zentraedi: Breetai, Exedore, Rico, Bron, and Konda. And while Macross created them, I did like some of the things the Robotech EU did with them.

I like Breetai having a love interest (who was pretty fun herself, I thought), I liked Exedore developing an increasing emotionality after an existential crisis in Macross. I liked the trio being Dana's godfathers.

All of these things helped expand on the character development that I saw in their original appearances, giving the characters a sense of a complete arc, of a final fulfillment.

Now, none of these aspects were handled entirely well. Breetai's death scene sucked, and so did the trio suddenly dying for conflictingly-explained reasons, and Exedore had a few minor OOC moments and you never know where exactly he ends up. Not to mention that they were only a few bright spots in an otherwise mucky EU.

(And none of this is canon anymore, but HG isn't the boss of me, so there )

But somehow that is enough. And that's even when the Robotech material seems to suffer from a large case of Not Getting It in regards to the Zentreadi as a whole, because the Zentreadi population is somehow worn down to a nub, and what's left are just a small contingent of warriors, living a life close to the one they did before. The EU didn't seem to see the possibilities that were right under their nose, instead relying on rebellions and militarism to define the new Zentraedi.

Not to mention that the Fantoma backstory was just plain stupid.

And furthermore, the rest of the major Macross characters *were* developed into a complete arc, and didn't need to be re-explored. Exedore and Breetai had some additional potential development to work with, which is why it, uh, works in the EU...but Rick, Lisa, Max, and Miriya seem shoehorned in. They don't grow or develop, or sometimes develop negatively. There's got to be more than just a body there.

Ambivalence.

It reverses somewhat with Macross-the-franchise. The Zentraedi there get to live a rich, full life, with multiple occupations and factions (though with a few gender double standards and Unfortunate Implications here and there on the part of the writers').

HOWEVER...I am not cool with Exsedol (Exedore) being retconned into a completely new character, Britai being retconned into a hideous new design, and the spy trio ending up as bitter, burned-out alcoholics with Rori (Rico) leaching off his wife. No. Just...

And because I made those characters the cornerstone of my Macross experience, I find it hard to forgive that continuity easily, or at least find something else to occupy my interest.

The DYRL Zentreadi designs, retcon or not, are also quite awful, but I could write an essay in itself as to why I think so.

And I'm one of those who felt that Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay disappearing into space was uncalled for. And no, that does *not* mean I want to see more of them. But this disappearance isn't the same as a fond ride into the sunset at all.

AND it goes without saying that Macross has its shit together. But enjoying something is not a matter of carefully weighing objective quality and then pursuing which has the most. I know Macross is objectively better as a franchise, but that's not the only thing.

I just look at all the Macross I've seen, and I can't recapture the affection I had for the original series. I loathe DYRL, despise Macross 7, thought Macross Frontier was just a pretty diversion, and thought Plus was okay, except for semi-hating the main cast. I haven't seen Zero yet, because my torrents are slow.

Through all this, I realize that Macross is the universe which created the Zentraedi, and I also find the original version of Macross (subtitled, because the ADV dub is atrocious), more enjoyable to watch than the Robotech dub...which gains it many points. I also like plumbing it for additional data related to the Zentreadi that the Robotech material left out or never covered.

So, no, I *don't* prefer one franchise over the other. I know what the score is, but I also know how I roll. It's not the best set of circumstances to be in, but somehow...I get by.

I got totally bored and pissed off by such an ammount of text. Common people make it fun a bit...

Nikolay116 wrote:

I got totally bored and pissed off by such an ammount of text. Common people make it fun a bit...

I see no need to cater to your ADD.

I was first introduced to Robotech. It literally took me years to figure out that they weren't all the same series. ((I could go into a long explanation about that, but I won't bore you -_-)

Within this time I did watch all three series and the Sentinels tape. I also read some of the books. (The ones I could find) I did also watch Macross II and Plus, but since they didn't really relate to "Robotech" I could see why they weren't part of the series.

I always loved the 'Macross' part of Robotech, but I also loved the Sentinels, since it featured most of those characters. There was a lot of drama and the friendly alien races they met with were really exciting to me.

When I did find out that there were three different series, everything made sense, but I still couldn't let go of the Sentinels. It's hard for me to go back and say I'm just a Macross fan and forget everything that I loved about Sentinels. That's where I stand and why I favor Robotech.

As far as Macross goes, my feelings vary. I like the original Macross and Macross Plus. I didn't like Macross II. I love the music and some of the character designs in Macross 7, but I couldn't get past the first two episodes. (One day I will watch it all.) I enjoyed Macross Zero, but I've only watched 2 or 3 episodes because the fansubbers took a while to work on it when it aired and I got caught up with other things. Macross Frontier, I heard it was similar to Macross 7 in the relationship department, so I haven't watched it. I'll probably watch it after 7.

Overall the Macross sequels haven't been that exciting to me. To be fair I haven't watch all of them. It seems like some of what made the original Macross great is lost in the sequels.

HashiNoUsagi wrote:

I was first introduced to Robotech. It literally took me years to figure out that they weren't all the same series. ((I could go into a long explanation about that, but I won't bore you -_-)

Within this time I did watch all three series and the Sentinels tape. I also read some of the books. (The ones I could find) I did also watch Macross II and Plus, but since they didn't really relate to "Robotech" I could see why they weren't part of the series.

I always loved the 'Macross' part of Robotech, but I also loved the Sentinels, since it featured most of those characters. There was a lot of drama and the friendly alien races they met with were really exciting to me.

When I did find out that there were three different series, everything made sense, but I still couldn't let go of the Sentinels. It's hard for me to go back and say I'm just a Macross fan and forget everything that I loved about Sentinels. That's where I stand and why I favor Robotech.

As far as Macross goes, my feelings vary. I like the original Macross and Macross Plus. I didn't like Macross II. I love the music and some of the character designs in Macross 7, but I couldn't get past the first two episodes. (One day I will watch it all.) I enjoyed Macross Zero, but I've only watched 2 or 3 episodes because the fansubbers took a while to work on it when it aired and I got caught up with other things. Macross Frontier, I heard it was similar to Macross 7 in the relationship department, so I haven't watched it. I'll probably watch it after 7.

Overall the Macross sequels haven't been that exciting to me. To be fair I haven't watch all of them. It seems like some of what made the original Macross great is lost in the sequels.

I'll agree that none of the sequels are quite as special as the original (and by the original, I mean the TV series (the ice cream), DYRL (the hot fudge and nuts), and Flashback 2012 (the cherry on top)).

I find it hard to be critical about any of them, though. I like them all in their own way. Macross II was disappointing as first, but I later grew to accept it, although I still don't like it very much. Macross 7...well, as I said before, it took a while. One of the biggest problems with it, though, is that it's easy to give up after the first few episodes and never watch the rest. The plot doesn't really get moving until about a quarter of the way through. Even then, it's not to everybody's taste.

I thnk Plus, Zero, and Frontier have the best action. Seven and Frontier have the best character interactions. And Plus and Frontier have the best music...although Fire Bomber WILL grow on you, no matter what you think of them at first.

lol @gubaba I wasn't baiting =P
just trying to start a nice discussion, but yeah like Hashi, it took me a long time to find out Robotech was made up of three different shows. I just used to think oh, a new chapter (after the macross saga) and then of course wtf @ dana... hey if that's dana why is she blonde? Hair dye? wig? lol yeah I could go on about that

although I was kind of disappointed when I found out the truth, cause I had believed Robotech was an original creation from the get-go but surprisingly, that truth didn't change my mind nor my love for the series. I've accepted it for what it is and I love it just the same.

HappyPenguins wrote:

lol @gubaba I wasn't baiting =P
just trying to start a nice discussion, but yeah like Hashi, it took me a long time to find out Robotech was made up of three different shows. I just used to think oh, a new chapter (after the macross saga) and then of course wtf @ dana... hey if that's dana why is she blonde? Hair dye? wig? lol yeah I could go on about that

although I was kind of disappointed when I found out the truth, cause I had believed Robotech was an original creation from the get-go but surprisingly, that truth didn't change my mind nor my love for the series. I've accepted it for what it is and I love it just the same.

I know you weren't baiting...but this thread is "bait," in that I can't resist posting in it.

But I think the "generation shift" throws EVERYBODY the first time they see Robotech. People learn to adjust, of course, but my friends and I were all baffled when "Dana's Story" aired, despite the fact that they had built up the the Robotech Masters by throwing them into earlier episodes. Although it was kind of a relief to find out that the chick with the blond afro in the opening was actually a character in the show.

A similar thing happened with Voltron, actually. In L.A., for some reason, they showed Lion Voltron in the afternoon, so that's what most of us saw. Vehicle Voltron, on the other hand, was shown in the morning. I remember catching it one day before school, and thinking, "What IS this? That's not Voltron!"

I think that Robotech suffers from having Southern Cross as its second chapter...I know some people really love it, but to me, it's not a very good show on its own, and the adaptation was rather clumsy. Some lines of dialogue (like Emerson thinking, "This is OUR planet!") made no sense to me until I learned that the original show wasn't set on earth (which also explains things like the weird dog creature that Dana talks to in episode...2? I think?).

It also doesn't help that, as one of my friends put it at the time, "Max and Miriya are so cool...why is their daughter such a doof?"

Quite a few of my friends stopped watching the show during the Masters, actually. More kept on in hopes of seeing the Macross characters again. Kind of like watching Macross 7 later, I continued to *want* to like the Masters, without ever actually getting there. It's still the only one of the three series that I haven't watched in Japanese.

Looking back on it, I kinda dig the dark tone of the story, even though Robotech makes the ending...not happier, per se, but at least giving everyone a chance. Yes, the spores are released, yes the Invid are coming, but you know that ultimately, humanity will triumph over the Invid. In the original series, from my understanding, the flowers are released, and that's it. They're going to mutate into triumvirates. Everyone's screwed. Everyone. The end.

Not as bleak as some other series I've watched (my favorite being Ideon), but it's up there.