by the fans for the fans

MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

SHHHHHHH....IN THE BACK...

MAV AND GUBABA TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING INTERESTING..

We are...?

I dunno. I'm still waiting for him to explain how Shadow Chronicles is all deep 'n' complex 'n' shit.

SIGHUP wrote:

Oh yes, in a nutshell. Gubaba was contesting Maverick's overestimation of Robotech's importance in the world of entertainment. He provides with links to Macross novels to show that they do exist. Thus, confirming that Macross probably has a bit more importance in the entertainment world than Robotech due to its numerous works.

I'll have to side with Gubaba on this one, after all 3 out of 10 fans (rough estimate) at the Comic Con RTX booth asked about Macross Frontier.

Hmm...I think you're going a little further with it than I am. I believe that Robotech is a minor hit with a cult following (and probably a lot of people who remember it fondly, but don't keep up with it). So yes, in saying that Paramount is trying to crank out as many Transformers movies as possible before Robotech hits the big screen, I think Mav is overestimating its importance.

But so say that Macross is more important and influential...? I'm not sure I'd go there. Certainly, I like Macross more, and I think it's better than Robotech. But "more influential" begs the question: what kind of influence? And where? Certainly, in the world of anime, Macross has more influence. And look at all the young'uns on Animesuki forums and Myanimelist who ADORE Macross F, but couldn't give two hoots about Robotech.

But Robotech aired in the US, and Europe, and South America, and China. So certainly Robotech has more potential exposure.

But again, what kind of influence are we talking about? If someone watches the Robotech Macross Saga, and falls in love with it, but then stops caring once it swtiches over to Masters or New Generation...is that person being influenced by Robotech, or by Macross? If someone loves the "Itano Circus" missile swarms in Macross Saga, isn't that really Macross influencing them, rather than Robotech?

Now, on the other hand, if someone loves the idea of Protoculture as a flower/drug/fuel, then that clearly WOULD be the influence of Robotech. Ditto if they fall in love with the multi-generational aspect of the show.

So I don't know which one is more influential in a general sense. Nor does it really matter to me. As I said, I enjoy Macross, and I don't enjoy Robotech. Look at it this way: my favorite group of all time is the Velvet Underground. Tons of people haven't heard them or don't like them. It took their first album nearly TWENTY YEARS to sell 100,000 copies. Now take someone I don't like, like Whitney Houston. I'd be crazy to say that the Velvert Underground are more popular than Whitney is. She's sold more albums, she's played on the radio more, she's had a massive influence on the singers that came after her. Doesn't change the fact that I like the VU better. And that's okay with me.

So maybe Robotech has been seen by more people; maybe it's generated more money; maybe it's bigger than Transformers, Star Wars, and Star Trek combined. But maybe not. I don't know, and I don't really care.

What I'm focused on in this thread are these two statements by Mav: 1) Robotech has novels and Macross doesn't (because it's blatantly false), and 2) Shadow Chronicles is really deep, and anyone who doesn't like it isn't smart enough to get it (because I'm waiting for him to back up that statement).

But since he doesn't seem to want to comment about either of those topics, I'll gladly sit back and read more about SETO KAIBA: THE INTERNET'S MOST ELIGIBLE BACHELOR.

In fact, development on Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles started much earlier. Reknowned SF author Robert J. Sawyer actually wrote the original series bible for Robotech The Shadow Chronicles which I believe was intended to be the pilot for a new animated series if did end being picked by a major network.

sfwriter.com/2006/05/robotech-and-me_26.html

Just because he wrote a proposed bible for RSC doesn't mean Tommy used it or even referred to it. Tommy wouldn't have been able to comprehend the complexity of the author's works anyway. If that had been the case we would have seen some level of depth to RSC which you so fervently believe exists and which you endlessly speak of.

www.sfwriter.com/2006/05/robotech-and-me_26.html

Friday, May 26, 2006

Had a wonderful two-hour lunch today with Tommy Yune, co-director of the recently completed movie Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles. To my absolute delight, Tommy told me I get a "thanks to" credit at the end of the film.

Why's that, you ask? Well, back in early 2003, I was hired by Harmony Gold to write a series bible for a potential revival of Robotech. I worked very closely with Tommy on that (he flew to Toronto from Los Angeles so we could work together at my home from Sunday, February 15, to Friday, February 21, 2003).

As often happens in Hollywood, the project ended up going in other directions, and my proposal (called Robotech: Rendezvous with Destiny) was never made. But Tommy says it was an important part of the development process for the final film they did end up producing. I haven't seen the full film yet (it was just screened at Cannes!), but the excerpts I've seen look amazingly good.

I'm tickled pink about all this: I have nothing but fond memories of the time I spent working on reviving Robotech, and Tommy and I have remained great friends ever since.

SHINJI ARAMAKI DID DO SOME NEW ART OF PRE EXISTING CHARACTERS. AND WORKED PARTIALLY WITH TOMMY WHILE IN JAPAN.

Any evidence of this? All I saw in pre-production were DDs and misuse of steroids. Unless you're talking about the mecha which makes more sense due to his expertise in that area.

Just because he wrote a proposed bible for RSC doesn't mean Tommy used it or even referred to it.

But Tommy says it was an important part of the development process for the final film they did end up producing. I haven't seen the full film yet (it was just screened at Cannes!), but the excerpts I've seen look amazingly good.

Any evidence of this? All I saw in pre-production were DDs and misuse of steroids. Unless you're talking about the mecha which makes more sense due to his expertise in that area.

POSTED HERE

www.robotech.com/community/forum/read.php?id=2048761&forumid=17

'Important' could either mean that Tommy ignored everything Robert wrote and went with his own ideas or actually used some of Sawyer's treatment - we just don't know. The telling fact here is that Robert Sawyer himself said and I'll rearrange the sentences for full effect to make my point:

I haven't seen the full film yet (it was just screened at Cannes!), but the excerpts I've seen look amazingly good. But Tommy says it was an important part of the development process for the final film they did end up producing.

Translation: He doesn't know if his proposal had in any way affected the production of RSC as he admits that he hadn't seen the full film at the time he wrote his blog. He is only trusting Tommy's word which many of us are left to do nowadays that result in either blindly following what Tommy says or directly questioning it.

Also, I think we're not on the same page here, the link you provided shows that Aramaki wrote a treatment for RSC and his working history with HG. You implied on pg 3 of this thread that he worked on pre-production art for RSC based on the quote you used from Zinjo where Zinjo was wondering what new designs Shinji would have come up with for RSC. Here:

ZINJO (QUOTE FROM CANNON FODDER)

I'm sure Shinji Aramaki was available to draw up some new designs based on his Mospeada work, but in reading this thread, if the the production budget was indeed only 1M, then there probably wasn't much money to contract out for new designs.

Too bad.

I would have loved to see what he would have come up with now!

SHINJI ARAMAKI DID DO SOME NEW ART OF PRE EXISTING CHARACTERS. AND WORKED PARTIALLY WITH TOMMY WHILE IN JAPAN. UP TO ALSO WORKED ON ROBOTECH INVASION COMICS BY WILDSTORM AS COVER ARTIST.


HG HIRED HIM AS WELL FOR WRITING THE FIRST TREATMENT OF SHADOW CHRONICLES. THOUGHT LIKE MANY OTHER WRITERS WHO SUBMITTED TREATMENTS, MR ARAMAKI DID NOT MAKE THE CUT AS A WRITER. I WOULD HOPE SOMEDAY HG WILL RELEASE EXCERPTS OF THE TREATMENT SO ARAMAKI FANS CAN READ WHAT HE WROTE FOR SHADOW CHRONICLES.

Maybe I'm reading his quote wrong and the fact I haven't got the link to that particular Cannon Fodder thread but I got the impression that Zinjo was referring to RSC's production. Anyways, I want to clarify and put forth the question again:

Where is the evidence that Shinji Aramaki did any pre-production work for Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles?

I'm not interested in answers that are hearsay or "check the credits in the RSC dvd". I want something concrete like screencaps or pictures that show his own designs.

Operator7G

I'm not interested in answers that are hearsay or "check the credits in the RSC dvd". I want something concrete like screencaps or pictures that show his own designs.

WELL, IS NOT THE CREDITS ENOUGH? DID YOU EVEN SEE SHADOW CHRONICLES? YOU CAN SEE HIS WORK IN IT.

NOW WHEN TOMMY SAT DOWN WITH ARAMAKI, AND BY HIS OWN WORDS AT CONS BACK IN THE BEGINNING HE SAID THEY WERE GOING OVER ART AND CHARACTERS.

DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH ARAMAKI OR WHAT ARAMAKI DID.

'Important' could either mean that Tommy ignored everything Robert wrote and went with his own ideas or actually used some of Sawyer's treatment - we just don't know. The telling fact here is that Robert Sawyer himself said and I'll rearrange the sentences for full effect to make my point:

NO REARRANGING WILL CHANGE WHAT TOMMY TOLD HIM RIGHT?

MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

WELL, IS NOT THE CREDITS ENOUGH? DID YOU EVEN SEE SHADOW CHRONICLES? YOU CAN SEE HIS WORK IN IT.

NOW WHEN TOMMY SAT DOWN WITH ARAMAKI, AND BY HIS OWN WORDS AT CONS BACK IN THE BEGINNING HE SAID THEY WERE GOING OVER ART AND CHARACTERS.

DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH ARAMAKI OR WHAT ARAMAKI DID.

Unfortunately DVD credits can mean nothing these days.

Actors will get Executive Producer credits on films as part of their signing deal so they can get more money out of the back end of a production. They didn't actually do any producer work, just got credit for it. Some writers insist on getting "Story By" credit on a film as part of the sale of their scripts. This way no matter who works on the script last (they usually get the writing credits, even if its only to fix the spelling... ), the original story credit remains with the original writer. Reputation is everything in Hollywood.

I thought the evidence in the SC Art book would be clear. The only thing actually new that I saw was the rail gun attached to the side of a Cyclone (aka Ride Armor - an Aramaki design). When one looks at the extensive pre-production art for Mospeada, you know that Aramaki has the talent and ideas to put out a hell of a lot more than the recycled line art that composed the majority of the new gear in the SC art book.

A next generation Ride Armor, Legios or Tread design I was referring to, when I commented on new designs by Aramaki. I'm sure the man has many ideas to update those 25 year old designs from Mospeada. One just has to look at the mecha in the Megazone OVAs to get a further taste of his talent!

ZINJO

Unfortunately DVD credits can mean nothing these days.

WE DON'T KNOW. WE CAN JUST GO BY WHAT HG SAYS. AND I JUST GO BY WHAT TOMMY SAYS AT CONS.

MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

ZINJO

Unfortunately DVD credits can mean nothing these days.

WE DON'T KNOW. WE CAN JUST GO BY WHAT HG SAYS. AND I JUST GO BY WHAT TOMMY SAYS AT CONS.

So if he told you he was Santa Claus would you believe him?

Enh, I don't know Memo...

I used this example at "another" site, but I think it bears repeating here:

Isaac Asimov wrote the book I, Robot. The Will Smith movie couldn't have been made without it; in other words, it had an important influence on the resulting movie. Asimov's book, in fact, was CENTRAL to the conception of the movie.

And yet, the movie itself bears almost no connection to any of Asimov's Robot stories, and is unrecognizable for anyone who's actually read the books. Asimov's name, however, is plastered all over the credits of the movie, and the film's director had a lot of kind of words to say about Asimov's book.

So maybe Shadow Chronicles greatly resembles Robert J. Sawyer or Shinji Aramaki's ideas, maybe it doesn't. Without knowing what ideas they brought to the table, we'll never be able to judge.

ME NEITHER.

I SEE YOUR POINT. PROBLEM HERE IS NO ONE HAS SEEN ANY OF THE WRITING OF TH ETREATMENT OTHER THAN TOMMY. AND UNTIL SOMEONE READS SAWYER'S BOOKS THEN ONE STILL DOES NOT KNOW.

WHY I POSTED THE ONE THAT FITS THE IDEA OF WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN USED...(SPECULATION)

"I CAN SEE THE RELATION BETWEEN SOME OF HIS BOOKS AND THE HYBRID THING"

www.sfwriter.com/




I CAN SEE A CONNECTION BETWEEN JANICE (A HYBRID LIVING THE PINOCCHIO LIFE) AND LOUIE WITH ONE OF THE BOOKS COVER AS SHOWNED. IS THERE ONE? I DON'T KNOW. I HAVE NOT READ THE BOOK. MAV KNOWS MORE ABOUT THE GUY THAN I DO.

IT IS INTERESTING THAT EVEN THE WRITER ACKNOWLEDGES HIS IDEAS WERE USED. AND THAT TOMMY TELLS HIM. DID I NOT READ ABOUT ARIEL/JANICE TRYING TO BE HUMAN SOMEWHERE?


THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TREATMENT. EXCERPT FROM THE BOOK.

Canadian writer Sawyer brings his Neanderthal Parallax trilogy to a close, leaving some loose ends that beg for a follow-up further exploring the interaction of two parallel worlds: the overcrowded and polluted one we're used to and another inhabited by highly intelligent and civilized Neanderthals. In the earlier books (Hominids and Humans), physicist Ponter Boddit got translated from the Neanderthal world to ours, where he fell in love with geneticist Mary Vaughn. The couple joined with people of good will from both worlds to keep the link open. Now, though, it's time to consider the implications of such a continuing connection. If people have trouble getting along because of such distinctions as sex and race, how will they be able to co-exist with members of another species? Some individuals see anyone different as a rival, a threat that must be destroyed. Others coldly calculate how to seize new territory for "humanity." Sawyer's characters are less interesting for who they are than for what they are-or what they represent. Still, his picture of the unspoiled Neanderthal world is charming, and he raises some provocative questions. If, for example, only Earth-humans have brains capable of religious belief, should Ponter and Mary genetically design their child with that ability or not? It all amounts to some of the most outrageous, stimulating speculation since Robert A. Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land questioned our tired, timid conventions.


CONNECTION SURE LOOKS STRONG BY THIS BOOK. BUT WE DONT KNOW TILL WE SEE SHADOW RISING. AS CLUES FROM THIS BOOK I CAN SEE 2 COUPLES BEING TALKED ABOUT...

SCOTT AND AN INVID ARIEL....

OR

LOUIE AND A HYBRID JANICE


NOW THAT LAST ONE LOUIE WILL FOLLOW JANICE INSIDE A SPACE WHALE TO GET HIS "HYBRID" BACK IF JANICE DECIDES TO WONDER OFF BY HERSELF. AND MAYBE BECOME HUMAN BY SOME FAIRY QUEEN OR SOMETHING.


HOPE YOU HAVE FUN WITH THIS AT THE "OTHER" SITE. GOTTA GET MY MOJO BACK WITH THIS ONE.