by the fans for the fans

MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

GUBABA

Again...nice try, Memo.

I TAKE THAT AS A YES.

HEY, NO BIG DEAL. YOU HAVE YOUR THINGS OF WHAT YOU LIKE.

Oooh, must be hitting a nerve if you're gettin' all personal an' shit.

Anyway, no. Underage girls are not sexually interesting to me, whether they be cartoons or real.

Clear enough for you?

MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

SO DOES ON THE ROBOTECH SIDE. I HEARD MIXED REVIEWS ON THE SUBJECT OF THE EXTRAS BUT MORE SO ON THE AUDIO PROBLEMS OF THE RE MASTERED.

Few complained, eh? So clearly, most Robotech fans have no problem with naked underage girls.

So much for casting aspersions on Macross fans...I seem to recall reading something about eyes and motes and beams...ring a bell?

MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

OVERALL WHAT HAPPENS IN JAPAN IS WHAT SAVE POSTED EARLIER ABOUT IMAGES SPLASHED EVERYWHERE AND PARENTS THERE WITH MORALS HAD ENOUGH. WHAT WAS CONSIDER OK, REGARDLESS OF MACROSS OR NOT, CHANGES ARE WANTED BY THE "CONCERNED MOTHERS OF JAPAN".

All right. So where's the proof? Surely, if Frontier is so outrageous, there MUST be reports of concerned mothers demanding that it be taken off the airwaves, right? There certainly are records to that effect regarding Evangelion, for example.

Was the legislation (which, I hasten to repeat, was shot down a month or two ago) directed at Frontier? Was Frontier cited as objectionable?

My Neighbor Totoro has more footage of naked underage girls in it than Frontier and Dynamite 7 COMBINED (not more than Robotech Remastered, however), and yet it's considered a national treasure, one of the finest animated films of all times, and no one has ever talked about banning it.

So yeah...give me a link, send me a PDF, anything...I want to see these complaints about Frontier that the Japanese public had.

GUBABA

Oooh, must be hitting a nerve if you're gettin' all personal an' shit.

Anyway, no. Underage girls are not sexually interesting to me, whether they be cartoons or real.

Clear enough for you?

HAHAHA.. YEP, MY FUNNY BONE. BUT IT'S COOL, IT'S COOL..

Few complained, eh? So clearly, most Robotech fans have no problem with naked underage girls.

So much for casting aspersions on Macross fans...I seem to recall reading something about eyes and motes and beams...ring a bell?

DON'T KNOW. NEVER ASKED THEM. AND DON'T RING NO BELL. SOUNDS LIKE SEE FOOD.

WONDER IF YOU CONFUSING ME WITH DOUG?

All right. So where's the proof? Surely, if Frontier is so outrageous, there MUST be reports of concerned mothers demanding that it be taken off the airwaves, right? There certainly are records to that effect regarding Evangelion, for example.

Was the legislation (which, I hasten to repeat, was shot down a month or two ago) directed at Frontier? Was Frontier cited as objectionable?

My Neighbor Totoro has more footage of naked underage girls in it than Frontier and Dynamite 7 COMBINED (not more than Robotech Remastered, however), and yet it's considered a national treasure, one of the finest animated films of all times, and no one has ever talked about banning it.

So yeah...give me a link, send me a PDF, anything...I want to see these complaints about Frontier that the Japanese public had.

IN GENERAL... MAYBE. DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT LEGISLATION WENT. JUST FROM THAT ONE REPORT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE THREAD. AND CITED NO. DOES IT FALL UNDER WHAT WAS BEING LEGISLATED? DEPENDS ON HOW YOU DEBATE THE IMAGES. TO ME IT DOES. BUT TO YOU IT MIGHT NOT. DOES THE LEGISLATION NEED TO SPECIFY NAMES OF TITLES? NO.

IF LAWS ARE WRITTEN IN GENERAL TERMS. CAN I EXCLUDE MYSELF FROM THEM? EVEN IF I AM NOT NAMED? KINDA STUPID OF ME TO BREAK THE LAWS JUST BECAUSE THERE IS NO NAME OF MINE ATTACHED TO IT.


LIKE THE ARTICLE SAYS. SOME PEOPLE HAD ENOUGH. NO NAMES TO BE SPECIFIC ABOUT. MACROSS CAN BE IGNORED ALTOGETHER. JUST DEPENDS AT WHAT THE "MOTHERS OF JAPAN" FEEL IS AGAINST THEIR MORAL BELIEF. DOES MACROSS HAVE A CHARACTER THAT LOOKS UNDER A CERTAIN AGE THAT SHOWS HER NUDE? OF COURSE. IS THAT WHAT THE "MOTHERS OF JAPAN" FIGHTING ABOUT? YES. DO THEY NAME MACROSS? NOPE. WILL THE DEBATE END? DON'T THINK SO.

MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

HAHAHA.. YEP, MY FUNNY BONE. BUT IT'S COOL, IT'S COOL..

MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

Few complained, eh? So clearly, most Robotech fans have no problem with naked underage girls.

So much for casting aspersions on Macross fans...I seem to recall reading something about eyes and motes and beams...ring a bell?

DON'T KNOW. NEVER ASKED THEM. AND DON'T RING NO BELL. SOUNDS LIKE SEE FOOD.

WONDER IF YOU CONFUSING ME WITH DOUG?

Matthew 7:5.



MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

All right. So where's the proof? Surely, if Frontier is so outrageous, there MUST be reports of concerned mothers demanding that it be taken off the airwaves, right? There certainly are records to that effect regarding Evangelion, for example.

Was the legislation (which, I hasten to repeat, was shot down a month or two ago) directed at Frontier? Was Frontier cited as objectionable?

My Neighbor Totoro has more footage of naked underage girls in it than Frontier and Dynamite 7 COMBINED (not more than Robotech Remastered, however), and yet it's considered a national treasure, one of the finest animated films of all times, and no one has ever talked about banning it.

So yeah...give me a link, send me a PDF, anything...I want to see these complaints about Frontier that the Japanese public had.

IN GENERAL... MAYBE. DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT LEGISLATION WENT. JUST FROM THAT ONE REPORT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE THREAD. AND CITED NO. DOES IT FALL UNDER WHAT WAS BEING LEGISLATED? DEPENDS ON HOW YOU DEBATE THE IMAGES. TO ME IT DOES. BUT TO YOU IT MIGHT NOT. DOES THE LEGISLATION NEED TO SPECIFY NAMES OF TITLES? NO.

IF LAWS ARE WRITTEN IN GENERAL TERMS. CAN I EXCLUDE MYSELF FROM THEM? EVEN IF I AM NOT NAMED? KINDA STUPID OF ME TO BREAK THE LAWS JUST BECAUSE THERE IS NO NAME OF MINE ATTACHED TO IT.


LIKE THE ARTICLE SAYS. SOME PEOPLE HAD ENOUGH. NO NAMES TO BE SPECIFIC ABOUT. MACROSS CAN BE IGNORED ALTOGETHER. JUST DEPENDS AT WHAT THE "MOTHERS OF JAPAN" FEEL IS AGAINST THEIR MORAL BELIEF. DOES MACROSS HAVE A CHARACTER THAT LOOKS UNDER A CERTAIN AGE THAT SHOWS HER NUDE? OF COURSE. IS THAT WHAT THE "MOTHERS OF JAPAN" FIGHTING ABOUT? YES. DO THEY NAME MACROSS? NOPE. WILL THE DEBATE END? DON'T THINK SO.

No, obviously you can't exempt yourself from a law if you're not named, but likewise, if, say, an anti-pornography law gets passed, does that mean every movie that has even brief nudity gets withdrawn from circulation? Of course not.

I honestly understand that that scene in Frontier went too far to you, but they're hardly an exception, whether in anime or in cinema, American or otherwise. I already mentioned Romeo and Juliet. And Thora Birch, IIRC, was 16 when she appeared topless in American Beauty. And nearly all teen movies feature underage drinking, drug abuse, and sex (even if the actors are over 18, their characters certainly aren't).

I'm not saying this is good or bad, I'm just saying it's how it is. And that to chastise Macross - and ONLY Macross - for a single short scene is to ignore a tremendous amount of media (from movies to books to magazine ads, and everything in between) from all over the world and from all points in history...up to and including Robotech in its current remastered form.

I dunno...to you (and obviously, many others), it may be a blurry issue; to me, it seems that the difference between nudity and pornography is pretty clear. To adopt the language of the MPAA, there's a vast gulf between "brief nudity" and "graphic sexuality."

Just one of the reasons why I thought a (somewhat) more serious discussion of the topic was warranted (although, obviously, that wasn't my initial goal).

GUBABA

Was the legislation (which, I hasten to repeat, was shot down a month or two ago)

GOING BY GOOGLE TRANSLATION
THERE WERE REVISIONS TO THE ARTICLE 22 IN FEB, AND MARCH FOR THE ARTICLE THAT STARTED IN JANUARY.
fr-toen.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2010/02/post-cbc1.html

NOT SURE BUT LOOKS LIKE IT WAS PUSHED BACK TO NEXT YEAR. LOOKS LIKE SUPPORTERS OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH ARE PUTTING A GOOD FIGHT. A NASTY FIGHT IT BECAME BETWEEN THE LEGISLATORS. THERE WAS GOING TO BE A VOTE ON JUNE TO PUSH THE DEBATE BACK AND GIVE EVERYONE CHANCE TO REVIEWING AT A LATER TIME. JANUARY 30TH TO BE EXACT. THAT'S A LONG COOLING OF PERIOD.

fr-toen.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2010/03/post-d2a1.html
2010/03/19-17:10）


Cartoon depiction of regulation, continue to review off-ordinance revision - Metropolitan

Youth on an amendment ordinance regulating sexually Tokyo in comics and animation for children, Metropolitan Affairs Committee on January 19 unanimously decided to continue with the examination. Congress passed a bill now that the ordinance was delayed.

In addition to the largest faction of the Democratic Party, Communist Party, the MIRAI network of life "to the amendments there are many challenges, it should make careful deliberation" (Democratic), as such, called for continued examination. Liberal Democrats call for early passage of the ordinance amendment, the New Komeito party, "to facilitate the revision is unavoidable" (LDP) as the other walked.

Governor Shintaro Ishihara told a news conference said, "While debate continues, by misconceptions hear opinions of others, preferably will be collecting the ordinance was disrespectful. To make hasty much" There are said, the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly and make the decision. Continued examination has been reported in this conference is scheduled for January 30, expected to be approved.

I don't recall finding anything in Macross Frontier that bad. There is a line and it can be crossed. That line is when teens look and act like children and are obviously being put in sexual situations. Macross is nothing compared to what else is out there. I was recently reading a manga and I stopped reading it because they had a girl that looked too young and had too many sexual references.

Oddly enough I recently watched a live action series on TV that featured minors engaging in sex and underage drinking. Of course it wasn't graphic.

I'm for and against the law. I'm for a law against child animated pornography for those under 12(note that there is a difference between art and pornography). Unfortunately the laws are usually all or nothing. It could easily get messy on what can and can't be drawn. What happens when you draw a character that's actual age is 43, but they are trapped in the body of an 8 year old? What if the character is 20, but they look underage and it's a part of the joke of the series? I think child pornography is disgusting, but it's hard to make a law that could prevent series that aren't harmful to be banished because of it.

HERE YOU GO GUYS

ALSO ADDED INFO IN FIRST POST OF THREAD.

Tokyo Assembly Passes Bill 156 – Anti-Anime and Manga Bill is now Law

dankanemitsu.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/to...nga-bill-is-now-law/

Posted on December 15, 2010 by dankanemitsu

Bill 156, known under such names as Nonexistent Youth Bill Ver.2, Nonexistent Crime Bill and the Anti-Anime and Manga Bill, was approved by a majority of full session of the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly.

Self regulation will be mandated from April 1st and sales regulation enforcement will begin from July 1st of 2011. While the amendment does not specify the status of previously published books, specialists believe reprinting of titles published in the past will now be subject to the new restrictions after the above dates.

As you already know, Tokyo already has the power to designate anything that is too sexually stimulating for minors OR too sadistic for minors OR too likely to cause criminal acts among minors OR cause suicide among minors as “harmful material”, and force such material to be treated as adult only material.

With the passage of Bill 156, the Tokyo Metropolitan Government will have the additional power to restrict any manga, anime and video games (but not live photography works) that feature any sexual acts that would violate criminal codes or Tokyo ordinances OR sexual depictions between close relatives who could not legally get married to be treated as adult material IF they are presented in “unjustifiably glorified or exaggerated manner.”

To see complete details of the bill, go here.

AND

dankanemitsu.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/bill-156s-total-scope/


Bill 156′s Total Scope
Posted on November 24, 2010 by dankanemitsu

Since the bill’s text was first made public on Monday, November 22nd, a lot of discussion has been focused on the provision’s regarding anime and manga. The bill’s name is actually Bill 156 and this bill to revise the Tokyo Metropolitan Ordinance Regarding the Healthy Development of Youths covers more ground that just anime and manga.

I will now give you a brief summery regarding all its provisions.

1) Tokyo will have the authority to suggest how minors have access to information through their cell phone based on the user’s age, to in order to make such changes, the Governor (or his office) has to heed advise from cell phone service industry people, parental guardians of minors, those with background in education, and etc.

2) Tokyo’s definition of how it deems publicly available material as harmful to minors will be changed.
- Previously, “Any material that may be detrimental toward the healthy development of youth because of their capacity to be sexually stimulating, encourages cruelty, and/or may compel suicide or criminal behavior.” was the criteria.
- Now the criteria will be expanded to include: “Any manga, animation, or pictures (but not including real life pictures or footage) that features either sexual or pseudo sexual acts that would be illegal in real life, or sexual or pseudo sexual acts between close relatives whose marriage would be illegal*, where such depictions and / or presentations unjustifiably glorify or exaggerate the activity.”
- Any material that is excessively breaches this standard can be deemed to be “harmful material” by the Tokyo Metropolitan Government unilaterally and thereby restrict their circulation from all minors (0-17 of age).

* See Of Illegal Fictional Marriages and Harmful Fictional Sex (Addendum) to see the complete list of marriages that are not sanctioned under Japanese law.

3) Publishers that have over 6 works deemed to be harmful material within a one year period by the Tokyo Metropolitan Government shall be subject to referral to their respective self-regulatory bodies for addressing the repeated offenses. Any further breaches within the following 6 months, and the Tokyo Metropolitan Government will have the authority to release the name of the company to the public, and the Governor will have the authority to issue opinions and evidence to support that opinion.

In other words, if a publisher releases something that Tokyo deems to be harmful to minors more than 6 times within a 12 month period, then the self-regulatory body that the publisher belongs to will be told to do something about this offending publisher. If the publisher offends once more within 6 months after that process, the Governor will have the right to humiliate the publisher in a public forum, and when that happens, you can expect retailers and distributor to avoid carrying that publisher’s line of works.

4) The bill allows the Tokyo Metropolitan Government to encourages the establishment of an environment where child pornography could be eliminated and prevent its creation.

Normally this would be a good thing, but Japanese child pornography law current has the notorious “Subsection 3″ clause that states “Any pose of a child [ages 0-17] wholly or partially naked, which arouses or stimulates the viewer’s sexual desire.” which is a very subjective standard that could even make family photos albums and National Geographic pages deemed to be “child pornography.”

While the clause included in the previous bill that called for the elimination of the “possession” of child pornography has been removed, the following has been added instead.

“Any sexually arousing posing on the behalf of children under the age of 13 wholly or partially naked, or wearing swimwear or only underwear, published in books or featured in film, must take into account of how the child’s mind and body may be harmed by becoming the object of sexual desire, and therefore parental guardians must exercise parental responsibilities to prevent and educate minors from becoming featured in such work or child pornography.”

Other provision are added to make sure that this new class of material, i.e. material that might not be outright sexual abuse images of children, yet sexually arousing posing of children that may endanger their welfare, should not be circulated and parents should not allow their creation.

5) Tokyo Metropolitan Government’s role in promoting and formulating Internet media literacy policies are confirmed.

6) To prevent harm that could arise from minor’s access to the Internet, filtering must be made more easily available and they must become more effective.

This is part of a response to the increasing phenomenon of cyber-bullying among other issues.

7) If a parental guardian wishes to deactivate a minor’s cell phone’s Internet filtering, they must submit a written request to their cell phone service provider where they recognize that it will be the parental guardian’s responsibility to make sure the minor’s Internet access is properly supervised AND that the reason for deactivation is recognized as being justifiable by the Tokyo Metropolitan Government.

Currently, when minors (0-17) in Tokyo sign up for a cell phone service that included Internet access, the Internet filtering is activated by default, but parents can ask for the filtering to be turned off. This clause would make it much more difficult for parents to deactivate Internet filtering on their children’s cell phone.

8) Parental guardians must properly supervise and administer Internet usage by minors in their care to prevent dangerous usage patterns that might involve criminal activities, etc. and strive toward limiting minor’s exposure to information that may result in criminal activities or become victims to the minimum possible.

That’s the major chunks of Bill 156. I’m sure the number 156 will carve out a unique spot within the psyche of fans of manga and anime for many years to come, regardless of how this bill fares in the legislative process.

Please note that my summary should not be taken as the final authority regarding the wording of the provision. I merely provide this information as a free service and readers should exercise their own discretion regarding my summary and translation.

For more information regarding comparisons of how the language of the bill has been changed from the past bill, I highly recommend Internet Watch’s article here.

This is also a good source to see all the changes being implemented. It is a PDF file created by a volunteer.

Addendum: This entry was updated on Dec. 4th, 2010.
Previously I had translated the word 誇張 as emphasize, but I have decided to revise this translation to the word exaggerate. When I first translated the word, I felt that exaggerate was too broad, but as I’ve read more and more of the writing regarding Bill 156.

Addendum: This entry was updated on Dec.8th, 2010.
The sections reading (0-18) should have been (0-17). This has been corrected.

MORE RELATED NEWS

dankanemitsu.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/fo...rticles-on-bill-156/

For Your Information – Articles on Bill 156
Posted on December 16, 2010 by dankanemitsu

Tokyo bans sales of sexually explicit comics to minors – LA Times
“The ordinance also outlaws certain images, stirring a debate about freedom of expression.”

Bill 156 does not ban anything. It does not outlaw the creation of any specific type of subject matter. It attempts to restrict anime, manga, and video games some consider inappropriate for minors, and thereby impacts what subject matter can be debated in a general audience setting. Japan already has restrictions on minor’s access to sexually explicit material. Bill 156 goes beyond that.

Japanese manga publishers threaten to boycott festival – The Telegraph
“The 10 largest publishers of comic books in Japan have vowed to boycott next year’s Tokyo International Anime Fair in protest at the city government passing a law that bans the sale of sexually explicit manga to minors.”

This article actually does a pretty good job, but it would be better if it would address the fact that selling “highly sexually stimulating material” is already restricted in Japan. Bill 156 inviting so much criticism from creators and publishers because it goes way beyond that and because they had so little input.

Tokyo cracks down on sexually explicit comics – FT.com

“Under new regulations passed this month, Tokyo authorities are seeking to block the sale to anyone under 18 of comics or animated films that “improperly laud or exaggerate” incest, rape and other sexual activity that contravenes “social norms”.

The rules – which also seek to promote internet filtering for minors and crack down on child pornography – highlight efforts by politicians, parents and teachers’ groups to tame an industry known for its explicit exploration of sexual taboos. But critics say the capital’s attempt to tighten censorship could have a chilling effect on a comic and animation sector seen as one of Japan’s most successful cultural exports.”

Remarkably, the article is actually fairly balanced. I’ve read far worse articles come out of Japan. It’s too bad that they didn’t mention how Akisora actually has a decent plotline. (Added 2010-12-25)

Extreme sexual ‘anime’ face curb – Kyodo News
“A Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly panel Monday passed a controversial bill to toughen regulations on the sale of comics and animation containing depictions of “extreme” sexual acts.”
“Subject to curbs under the bill will be depictions of rapes and other penal offenses and those “unduly lauding or exaggerating” incestuous affairs”

Another example where Bill 156 is characterized as being an anti-pornography ordinance. This is really typical and misleading since the article does not mention anything about pre-existing regulations. (Added 2010-12-27)

Cool Japan chilled: Censorship rules Japan – The Comic Journal
“While restrictions on sexually stimulating and/or harmful depictions have long been in place in Japan, the new revisions specifically target “manga and anime,” while exempting real-life photography (explain that one), and focus on materials that may be “disrupting of social order”–much like Ishihara’s own decades’ old taboo-breaking novels and plays, and his more recent nationalist, racist and homophobic blather.”
“…Japan’s real youth are thin on the ground: The nation’s notoriously declining birth rate is among the lowest in developed economies, and jobs for those youth who actually do exist in the form of university graduates have grown scarce. What’s more, government officials are not doing much to help them.”

Very good article, but I helped out with writing it, so I am biased. But I recommend this article a lot because it helps describe the context within which Bill 156 appeared. Tokyo, and Japan overall, has some really serious social and demographic issues, and Bill 156 probably won’t do much to address those issues even within Tokyo. (Added 2010-12-27)

Tokyo introduces manga restrictions – BBC
“Tokyo has banned the sale and lease of anime films and manga comics depicting rape, incest and other sex crimes to under-18s.”
“A bill, introduced by the metropolitan assembly, calls on the industry to self regulate by toning down graphic comics and films on general release.”
“Manga comics, popular with both adults and children in Japan, deal with themes including high school romance and literary classics as well as sometimes hardcore and violent pornography.”

While the BBC manages to point out that manga is a near universal medium, they also fail to point out that there are numerous pre-existing safeguards already in place prior to Bill 156. (Added 2010-12-27)

oh noes!!! bye high school of the dead.