by the fans for the fans

HashiNoUsagi

It bothers me when people are intentionally ignorant of other cultures.

NOT REALLY. NOT EVERYONE HAS TO ACCEPT THE OTHER..


EXAMPLE WHEN I WATCHED BRUCE LEE MOVIES IN THEATERS BACK IN THE 70'S. I KNEW NOTHING OF CHINESE OR THEIR CULTURE. I HATED CHINESE FOOD OR ANYTHING THAT DID NOT LOOK LIKE MCD'S OR MEXICAN FOOD. BUT I ENJOYED A DUBBED KUNG FU FIGHT.

LATER I FOUND OUT MORE OF COURSE..


WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY IS JUST BECAUSE THE MOVIE IS FOR WHAT IT IS DOES NOT MEAN ONE HAS TO DIVE INTO A CULTURE. OR ACCEPT THE CULTURE.

MaverickLSC wrote:

Speaking for myself, I prefer Robotech because of the western storytelling, macross on its own is a fine series that deserves the reception it had in Japan and internationally. But for the most part, because most of the more famous hard SF novels and short stories have been written by popular western authors. Those concepts and subject matter have been reflected in the mythos of Robotech. Both the novelizations and the TV series reflect this western viewpoint on SF.

Macross is an ambiguity as it involves mostly how culture, in particular Japanese culture, won the war against an alien race with superior technology and numbers. Hence the idol singers tend to determine the final outcome in all macross series climaxes.

Robotech involves the cultural aspect in only the first act, but then the subsequent acts the cultural aspect of war is changed.

In Robotech:The Macross Saga, it was the culture shock that affected the Zentraedi who realize that there was another alternative to war in a society.

In Robotech:The Masters Saga, it was the political and cultural shock the allowed the people of the Robotech Masters to realize that you can have emotions in society and not follow a facist control state, where big brother monitors your every action. The people of earth were able to show them another alternative.

In Robotech:The New Generation Saga, it was the analysis of the invid monitoring the human activity by the planted spy Aerial that lead some invid members to go rogue, realizing that you do not need to follow an order of hierarchy, with a hive mentality like that of an ant farm or a bee's nest. You can be an individual and not be part of the collective consciousness.

These kinds of western storytelling is why I prefer Robotech over Macross. But I still value Macross as a fan and respect it.

<snip>

I believe many fans would prefer western storytelling. I have friends who arent' into anime, but are into Robotech because Robotech relates more to western society than does Macross. And because of it, some of my friends have seen Macross and felt it alienated them. For myself, I've learned to accept the cultural differences and distinctions and am confortable with both western and eastern storytelling.

I'll be frank...I don't get it. On the one hand, you have people saying that Robotech brought anime to the west; on the other, you have people saying how great Robotech is because it's so western.

My question is...how western is it, really? If I took the original Star Trek, dubbed it into French, changed Kirk's name to "Pierre LaFiche," Uhura to "Isabelle Gall," McCoy to "Docteur Charlus," and so on, and then added the original Battlestar Galactica, saying that it was set forty years after Star Trek when the robot servants of the Klingons attack earth, and now the sole survivors (led by Commodant D'Etoile and his lead pilots Apollo and Pascal (Pascal of course being Starbuck, and referred to as Kirk's grandson)), as they go off in search of the Enterprise...have I created an authentically French sci-fi show?

And did it take more talent and vision for me to figure out ways to edit the footage and change dialogue to fit the two series together than it did to create them in the first place?

And if an American tells me that the original Star Trek is better, am I correct if I say, "Well, Voyager and Enterprise sucked, and Next Generation ran on way too long, so the French version is superior. The American version is good, no doubt about it, but many people prefer French stories with French culture."?

(Hell, I could even do a bunch of comics showing the Galactica finding the Enterprise, Pascal getting reunited with his grandfather, and all that. Stories about the "lost generation" where they ban teleportation technology and phase out the Starfleet-type ships with Battlestars, that sort of thing.)

Like I said, I don't get it.

GUBABA

I'll be frank...I don't get it. On the one hand, you have people saying that Robotech brought anime to the west; on the other, you have people saying how great Robotech is because it's so western.

CONSIDERING THAT MAV WAS ON A PERSONAL OPINION AND INPUT FROM WHO WAS CLOSE TO HIM I UNDERSTAND.

SAME THING WITH ME THAT YOU HAVE DIFFERENT INPUTS FROM DIFFERENT FANS. OR JUST PEOPLE WHO SAW ROBOTECH BUT JUST KEPT IT AS IT WAS... A GOOD CARTOON.

THERE ARE THOSE THAT STARTED LOOKING FOR MORE OR PAYED MORE ATTENTION TO MORE ANIME COMING ACROSS AND DO TO LANGUAGE BARRIERS ONLY SEE THE DUBB VERSIONS.

EXAMPLE

DUBBED POKEMON, YU GI OH, FULL METAL ALCHEMIST, AND SO ON.


THAT'S ANIME THAT CAME ACROSS BUT WITH A WESTERN FLAVOR. WHERE FANS CAN POINT THAT ROBOTECH WAS THE CULPRIT. AND KIDS AND OR YOUNG TEENS DON'T LOOK FURTHER INTO THE JAPANESE VERSION.

MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

GUBABA

I'll be frank...I don't get it. On the one hand, you have people saying that Robotech brought anime to the west; on the other, you have people saying how great Robotech is because it's so western.

CONSIDERING THAT MAV WAS ON A PERSONAL OPINION AND INPUT FROM WHO WAS CLOSE TO HIM I UNDERSTAND.

SAME THING WITH ME THAT YOU HAVE DIFFERENT INPUTS FROM DIFFERENT FANS. OR JUST PEOPLE WHO SAW ROBOTECH BUT JUST KEPT IT AS IT WAS... A GOOD CARTOON.

THERE ARE THOSE THAT STARTED LOOKING FOR MORE OR PAYED MORE ATTENTION TO MORE ANIME COMING ACROSS AND DO TO LANGUAGE BARRIERS ONLY SEE THE DUBB VERSIONS.

EXAMPLE

DUBBED POKEMON, YU GI OH, FULL METAL ALCHEMIST, AND SO ON.


THAT'S ANIME THAT CAME ACROSS BUT WITH A WESTERN FLAVOR. WHERE FANS CAN POINT THAT ROBOTECH WAS THE CULPRIT. AND KIDS AND OR YOUNG TEENS DON'T LOOK FURTHER INTO THE JAPANESE VERSION.

Again, it doesn't really make sense to me. Millions of people loved Amélie, despite (or because of) the fact that it was in French and had a lot of French culture. Likewise, no one decided that Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon needed to be made more "Western" in order to be successful.

And yes, Hollywood makes films based on foreign movies all the time, from French romantic comedies to Japanese horror movies.

To me, it smacks of condescension. A good story is a good story, regardless of the country of origin. To say, "Well, an American audience needs American characters and a western plot, or else they won't be interested" is...kind of insulting, in my view.

(This is not to say that there aren't stories that are too "culturally specific" to reach beyond those cultures. There are. But Macross isn't one of them.)

The Macross Saga is good because Macross is good. Is "Force of Arms" a great episode solely because it wasn't called "Love Drifts Away" and because it featured "We Will Win"? I don't think so. I think it was good because the story and the animation were ALREADY great. One can claim that the Robotech writers made it better by changing the music and adding tons of dialogue, but the plot and most of the characterization remain intact.

Ultimately, of course, it comes down to personal taste, and what one is willing to accept. And (as Mav said) nostalgia is a powerful factor.

But if someone really can't get into the original Macross (or any number of other things) because it's "too Japanese," I would (respectfully) suggest that perhaps the problem is not with the OSM...it might be that the viewer is simply unreceptive to something that's "different."

GUBABA

Again, it doesn't really make sense to me. Millions of people loved Amélie, despite (or because of) the fact that it was in French and had a lot of French culture. Likewise, no one decided that Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon needed to be made more "Western" in order to be successful.

AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DON'T. I AM ONE WHO KNOWS ABOUT IT BUT MEH, NOT INTERESTED.

THEN AGAIN I SEEN ALL THE "TAXI" MOVIES SUBBED.

And yes, Hollywood makes films based on foreign movies all the time, from French romantic comedies to Japanese horror movies.

To me, it smacks of condescension. A good story is a good story, regardless of the country of origin. To say, "Well, an American audience needs American characters and a western plot, or else they won't be interested" is...kind of insulting, in my view.

THEN WE CAN AGREE THAT NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE INTO FORIGN MOVIES AND WOULD LIKE IT TO BE "WESTERNIZED" PER SAY.

EXAMPLE MOVIE ABOVE IN FRENCH "TAXI" I LIKED BUT THEN HOLLYWOOD HAD TO MAKE AN AMERICAN TAXI WITH QUEEN LATIFAH

(This is not to say that there aren't stories that are too "culturally specific" to reach beyond those cultures. There are. But Macross isn't one of them.)

The Macross Saga is good because Macross is good. Is "Force of Arms" a great episode solely because it wasn't called "Love Drifts Away" and because it featured "We Will Win"? I don't think so. I think it was good because the story and the animation were ALREADY great. One can claim that the Robotech writers made it better by changing the music and adding tons of dialogue, but the plot and most of the characterization remain intact.

BUT THEN WE KNOW OF PROBLEMS THAT MACROSS HAD HERE IN THE STATES IN IT'S ORIGINAL FORM TO PLAY IN T.V.

TO SHORT.

Ultimately, of course, it comes down to personal taste, and what one is willing to accept. And (as Mav said) nostalgia is a powerful factor.

But if someone really can't get into the original Macross (or any number of other things) because it's "too Japanese," I would (respectfully) suggest that perhaps the problem is not with the OSM...it might be that the viewer is simply unreceptive to something that's "different."

I DISAGREE.

I MYSELF WAS NOT UNWILLING OR UNRECEPTIVE. SOME MACROSS I LIKE AND SOME I DON'T. JUST AS SIMPLE. AND SOME I LIKE MORE AND DIVE A LITTLE EXTRA INTO THE STORY.

NOSTALGIA OR NOT IT'S JUST A MATER OF PERSONAL TASTE AS EXPLAINED ABOVE.

MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY IS JUST BECAUSE THE MOVIE IS FOR WHAT IT IS DOES NOT MEAN ONE HAS TO DIVE INTO A CULTURE. OR ACCEPT THE CULTURE.

I wasn't suggesting that people must dive into the culture or accept it, but to be open to it.

MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

I MYSELF WAS NOT UNWILLING OR UNRECEPTIVE. SOME MACROSS I LIKE AND SOME I DON'T. JUST AS SIMPLE. AND SOME I LIKE MORE AND DIVE A LITTLE EXTRA INTO THE STORY.

NOSTALGIA OR NOT IT'S JUST A MATER OF PERSONAL TASTE AS EXPLAINED ABOVE.

I think the point, please correct me Gubaba if I'm wrong, was that if you were a Robotech fan, you should also enjoy the original Macross series, not necessarily the sequels.

I feel it's okay to say that "I can't stand the Japanese voices or music" or "I can't stand reading subtitles" are legitimate reasons why a person doesn't like the Japanese version, but it's not a good reason to say that Robotech is better. I will also say that if you're not accustomed to Japanese language and culture, you could miss out on important parts of the story. That could take away from enjoying the show.

HashiNoUsagi wrote:

I think the point, please correct me Gubaba if I'm wrong, was that if you were a Robotech fan, you should also enjoy the original Macross series, not necessarily the sequels.

Yeah, pretty much. I'm not talking about any of the sequels, I'm memerely talking about SDFM TV and RT Macross Saga.

HashiNoUsagi wrote:

I feel it's okay to say that "I can't stand the Japanese voices or music" or "I can't stand reading subtitles" are legitimate reasons why a person doesn't like the Japanese version, but it's not a good reason to say that Robotech is better.

I can go with "I don't like Japanese voices or music," but not wanting to read subtitles sounds like laziness to me. But then, I was a lit major in college, and a voracious reader, so to me, "I don't want to read subtitles" sounds as silly as "I don't want to listen to the audio when I watch a movie."

HashiNoUsagi wrote:

I will also say that if you're not accustomed to Japanese language and culture, you could miss out on important parts of the story. That could take away from enjoying the show.

Some shows, yes. Macross, no. It's already pretty international and easily accessible, I believe. Which is part of the reason why Carl Macek originally wanted to bring it to the US, I believe.

Another reboot attempt would be a bad call because we all know what happened when Carl Macek tried to reboot Robotech!

He made Robotech 3000 and that did not bode well,From what I got from both Macross and Robotech fans Carl wanted to make a reboot due to fan pressure of not keeping Robotech close to Macross elements.

Besides I think we will not see any action of a series or reboot until the LAM is done with because that is what caused Robotech to come to a dead stop.

Pizza the Hutt wrote:

Another reboot attempt would be a bad call because we all know what happened when Carl Macek tried to reboot Robotech!

He made Robotech 3000 and that did not bode well,From what I got from both Macross and Robotech fans Carl wanted to make a reboot due to fan pressure of not keeping Robotech close to Macross elements.

I don't think it was "fan pressure," since fans hated it.

Pizza the Hutt wrote:

Besides I think we will not see any action of a series or reboot until the LAM is done with because that is what caused Robotech to come to a dead stop.

Do you have proof of that? Kevin McKeever has said many, many times that Shadow Rising is NOT on hold, and all the haters will have to eat their words when it comes out.

Are you calling Kevin McKeever a liar...?

Do you have proof of that? Kevin McKeever has said many, many times that Shadow Rising is NOT on hold, and all the haters will have to eat their words when it comes out.

HEY, WHAT YOU GUYS TRYING TO PULL? DID YOU GUYS SWAP ACCOUNTS?