by the fans for the fans

mojomike wrote:

It seems to me that Yune could have told the same story but used the events of Genesis as the starting point. Why have all the inconstancies? I mean Robotechs continuity is hard enough to follow as it is.

YEAH, SEE YOUR POINT. TRYING TO APPEASE EVERY FAN OUT THERE AND THEIR TYPE OF STORY BE IT NOVELS, SENTINELS, GRAPHIC NOVEL OR EVEN THE SERIES ITSELF TO NOT GET ON SOMEONE ABOUT THE CONTINUITY IS ALREADY HARD ENOUGH.

NOT EVERYBODY IS GOING TO BE HAPPY.

Mark Warlock wrote:

I'll have to go back and check something in that episode... Rick mentions to Roy that he had won that competition 8 years in a row.. but then, like you said, he says "What were you doing." That's when Roy says he had been fighting a war. But then he says that after the war "the whole Robotech thing was so good he couldn't give it up.. it just gets in your blood".. I'm paraphrasing of course, his actual words are escaping me at the moment. I believe that was after Rick mentions Roy's promise to return to the Circus after the war. I'll also have to go back and check with the Wildstorm Comics because If I remember right, after the "Global war" Roy returns briefly home before he is asked to enter the testing program for the VFs. While this does seem to muddy the back story a little... we might be able to say that Rick was just being a little pissy toward Roy in his statements.

Though like I said.. I will go back and recheck those sources to be sure.

Again, at the risk of repeating myself, the problem with the Wildstorm comics (as I understand it, since I haven't read them) is that they presuppose there was a war after the war. I'm talking about the show and the Graphic Novel (which, I again stress, was plotted by Macek himself, and thus is part of "Carl's Vision," and, equally thus, SHOULD be canon. If it's not, there should be a damn good reason why, don't you think?).

So what you're saying is that the narrator mentions a war. He also mentions a cease-fire. Roy also mentions a war, which has clearly ended. And yet, although no one talks about it, the war Roy mentions is a different war.

If it were a case where we were being deliberately misled in order to come up with some twist or big reveal later in the show, such a technique would be all right...but it's not. It's never addressed again in the show, apart from the comment about the "Anti-Unification League."

And about that...is there some line of dialogue I'm missing that says exactly who this is or what they do? How can you be sure Roy was fighting them? He doesn't say anything of the kind, nor does anyone else in the show as far as I can tell.

Anyway, my main point is that since it's not done for any artistic reason, it's just bad storytelling.

Conversely, we can take the Narrator at his word, take the Graphic Novel as fitting continuity, and then the whole scenario is much less confusing.

Note that the Timeline on Robotch.com makes no mention of any conflict after August 1999 (although there's that rather ambiguous word "officially" thrown in there).

Mark Warlock wrote:

To be honest I can't remember what Hikaru's age was at the start of Macross. So if you could please refresh my memory on that and I might be able to offer something to help.

Hikaru was 16. Misa was 19. Roy was 28.

Mark Warlock wrote:

While I do believe "Genesis" had been part of the greater story arch that Macek had outlined, Genesis was not written by Macek but by Mike Baron...

I know, which is why I've always described it as "plotted" by Macek.


Mark Warlock wrote:

and therefore may have some alterations to the story...

Wow...no offense intended, but that's a hell of a statement with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Mark Warlock wrote:

...it is possible that the "Anti-unifcation conflict" or whatever it was, may have simply been forgotten by the writer.

My speculation is that it's the reverse...since the Global War ending is a change the Robotech writers introduced, but "Anti-Unification League" comes straight out of the Macross script. They changed Episode 1, but by Episode 15 forgot (or didn't care, or didn't notice) that they'd changed it.

The only other conclusion I can think of is that they failed to mention a resistance anywhere, but still somehow expected everyone to realize it existed. Which makes no sense.

I guess what I'm suggesting is a wholesale repurposing of the phrase "Anti-Unification League." Instead of just borrowing what it is in Macross, is there some other, Robotech-specific meaning it could have?

Mark Warlock wrote:

I wouldn't say Tommy necessarily knows better or believes he knows better then Carl about what happened. I just believe that we are seeing changes much like what happens in a franchise when there is a new "Captain" on the bridge so to speak. Even Star Trek has gone through changes since Roddenberry passed away.

Well...Star Trek has a long history of creating messes of continuity and bad science that fans have diligently tried to clean up, sometimes more convincingly, sometimes less so.

Gubaba wrote:

Again, at the risk of repeating myself, the problem with the Wildstorm comics (as I understand it, since I haven't read them) is that they presuppose there was a war after the war. I'm talking about the show and the Graphic Novel (which, I again stress, was plotted by Macek himself, and thus is part of "Carl's Vision," and, equally thus, SHOULD be canon. If it's not, there should be a damn good reason why, don't you think?).

CARL MACEK GRAPHIC NOVEL IS SECONDARY CANON.

DOES IT CONFLICT WITH THE SHOW? MAYBE NOT AND ONLY REASON IT IS NOT A PRIMARY CANON IS BECAUSE THE NEW TEAM PROBABLY HAS AN OTHER WAY OF TELLING THE STORY EXAMPLE THE WILDSTORM COMICS. TOOK SOME ELEMENTS OF THE GRAPHIC NOVEL BUT NOT ALL.

So what you're saying is that the narrator mentions a war. He also mentions a cease-fire. Roy also mentions a war, which has clearly ended. And yet, although no one talks about it, the war Roy mentions is a different war.

ROY NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BEING A DIFFERENT WAR.

If it were a case where we were being deliberately misled in order to come up with some twist or big reveal later in the show, such a technique would be all right...but it's not. It's never addressed again in the show, apart from the comment about the "Anti-Unification League."

THAT PART OF THE STORY IS NOT NEEDED IN THE CURRENT SHOW SINCE ITS ABOUT MORE OF THE HUMAN RACE GOING UP AGAINST A HUGE ALIEN INVASION.

And about that...is there some line of dialogue I'm missing that says exactly who this is or what they do? How can you be sure Roy was fighting them? He doesn't say anything of the kind, nor does anyone else in the show as far as I can tell.

YOU WONT FIND IT IN THE SHOW. ITS IN THE WILDSTORM COMICS.

Anyway, my main point is that since it's not done for any artistic reason, it's just bad storytelling.

NOT REALLY. LIKE I SAID BEFORE. ITS NOT NEEDED IN THE SHOW. IF ANYTHING THE WILDSTORM COMICS EXPAND ON IT MORE.

Conversely, we can take the Narrator at his word, take the Graphic Novel as fitting continuity, and then the whole scenario is much less confusing.

WHY THE WILDSTORM COMICS EXPAND MORE ON WHAT WAS NOT SEEN ON THE SHOW.

Note that the Timeline on Robotch.com makes no mention of any conflict after August 1999 (although there's that rather ambiguous word "officially" thrown in there).

HEHEHE, ONE OF THE BAD THINGS ABOUT NOT UPDATING THE TIMELINE. HG STANCE IS THEY HAVE NO TIME.

The only other conclusion I can think of is that they failed to mention a resistance anywhere, but still somehow expected everyone to realize it existed. Which makes no sense.

LIKE I SAID, NOT NEEDED. THE MORE POINT IS THE WAR THAT IS GOING ON IN THE SHOW BETWEEN THE ALIENS AND THE HUMANS.

I guess what I'm suggesting is a wholesale repurposing of the phrase "Anti-Unification League." Instead of just borrowing what it is in Macross, is there some other, Robotech-specific meaning it could have?

THEY BORROWED A LOT FROM MACROSS, WORRYING ABOUT A SIMPLE LITTLE THING OF ALL THE ADAPTING I THINK WAS NOT IN THE CREATORS MIND.

Gubaba wrote:

Again, at the risk of repeating myself, the problem with the Wildstorm comics (as I understand it, since I haven't read them) is that they presuppose there was a war after the war. I'm talking about the show and the Graphic Novel (which, I again stress, was plotted by Macek himself, and thus is part of "Carl's Vision," and, equally thus, SHOULD be canon. If it's not, there should be a damn good reason why, don't you think?).

First off, in your question you are using one "canon" source (The original animation) and one Secondary "canon" source, (Graphic novel: Genesis). So you'll forever be in a continuity loop. Second, You can stress all you'd like about the plot being lined out by Macek but it doesn't changed the fact that the novel was not written by him and is now no longer in the primary continuity. No one is saying it was not part of Macek's overall vision... but it is no longer part of the primary coninuity.

So what you're saying is that the narrator mentions a war. He also mentions a cease-fire. Roy also mentions a war, which has clearly ended. And yet, although no one talks about it, the war Roy mentions is a different war.

Who knows for sure.. I simply offer my OPINION on the matter. You ask for answers to a question where there is limited information... we can only speculate on what may be.

If it were a case where we were being deliberately misled in order to come up with some twist or big reveal later in the show, such a technique would be all right...but it's not. It's never addressed again in the show, apart from the comment about the "Anti-Unification League."

And about that...is there some line of dialogue I'm missing that says exactly who this is or what they do? How can you be sure Roy was fighting them? He doesn't say anything of the kind, nor does anyone else in the show as far as I can tell.

Anyway, my main point is that since it's not done for any artistic reason, it's just bad storytelling.

Overall... You're really over analyzing a cartoon that was adapted in a relatively shorty period of time. I don't know of any true fan of Robotech that won't say there are inconsistencies. I don't know of any series that doesn't have them.. We can do one of 2 things... we can sit and bitch and moan and go in circles trying to rationalize it, or we can look at ways to USE those inconsistencies to an advantage. I'll give an example... The YF-1R.. while not a story inconsistency, it was an animation error. But Rather than just leave it as such... they capitalized on the error and created a new variation of the VF-1. Some will criticize this move as well... but I for one, think it was a brilliant move. It created new merchandise and has even inspired Macross fans to build custom versions. I haven't seen any other series use an animation screw up like that and turn it into something.

Conversely, we can take the Narrator at his word, take the Graphic Novel as fitting continuity, and then the whole scenario is much less confusing.

Note that the Timeline on Robotch.com makes no mention of any conflict after August 1999 (although there's that rather ambiguous word "officially" thrown in there).

For a time it was like that.. but things change. New people come in, new ideas are introduced and an "ambiguous" reference is expanded upon. The timeline on Rt.com doesn't make mention of a conflict after 1999... but then again it also contains information in it that wasn't in the animation or the graphic novel..

Hikaru was 16. Misa was 19. Roy was 28.

Thanks for the reminder.

I know, which is why I've always described it as "plotted" by Macek.

I don't believe anyone has disputed this...

Wow...no offense intended, but that's a hell of a statement with absolutely nothing to back it up.

I always find it funny how someone will say "No offense" then follow it up with something that might offend someone… (though I take nothing on any forum personal).

I thought we already had discussed taking things out of context and twisting words.. and yet you've done it again. You have taken part of a larger statement and made it sound as if I am stating a fact. This does not help your side of a debate nor will it side track me from mine. If you are going to quote me... please quote me properly..

Mark Warlock wrote:

While I do believe "Genesis" had been part of the greater story arch that Macek had outlined, Genesis was not written by Macek but by Mike Baron and therefore may have some alterations to the story, it is possible that the "Anti-unification conflict" or whatever it was, may have simply been forgotten by the writer.

[/i]

That is my full statement, as you can see.. the overall statement offered speculation intended to answer your question.

My speculation is that it's the reverse...since the Global War ending is a change the Robotech writers introduced, but "Anti-Unification League" comes straight out of the Macross script. They changed Episode 1, but by Episode 15 forgot (or didn't care, or didn't notice) that they'd changed it.

Behind the scenes that's probably what happened, but I thought you were looking for an answer within the story and not about what the writers did to get it where it is.

The only other conclusion I can think of is that they failed to mention a resistance anywhere, but still somehow expected everyone to realize it existed. Which makes no sense.

As an adult we can punch holes in just about every story out there... but back when Robotech first aired.. to the kids it was aimed at.. I think that many of them understood things within the story... without having to have the writers hold their hands and walk them through every aspect. To quote Yoda... "Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.". This is so true.. the child's imagination is a wonderful thing.. it has ways of understanding things that some lose as they become adults.

I guess what I'm suggesting is a wholesale repurposing of the phrase "Anti-Unification League." Instead of just borrowing what it is in Macross, is there some other, Robotech-specific meaning it could have?

What would you have it mean?

Well...Star Trek has a long history of creating messes of continuity and bad science that fans have diligently tried to clean up, sometimes more convincingly, sometimes less so.

That's part of my point.. No franchise is free of inconsistencies.. Star Trek is probably the most notorious of them all. And it shows how changes in "management" will bring changes in a franchises story.

OK, WAS CHECKING "RAINY NIGHT"

WE SEE A YOUNG ROY AND BARELY MEETING CLAUDIA IN WYOMING.

NOW THE BASE GETS ATTACKED AND THAT STATE IS ALMOST IN THE CENTER OF THE STATES.

SO WHERE WOULD YOU FIGURE THE ATTACKERS COME FROM?

Mark Warlock wrote:

Blah blah...

Heh. Nice try, Dude.

For those of you following at home, Mark Warlock and I have also been talking via PM.

Because I thought (for whatever reason) that I could trust him, I told him what my next step was going to be.

Because he's a... (I don't know what to call it, really), he responded to my private arguments publicly, in order to make himself look like he'd one-upped me.

I'd assumed that Robotech fans had a sense of fair play. I guess I was wrong.

Robotech fans will do ANYTHING, honest or not, to make themselves seem superior.

I'm sad to see that, frankly. It's always sad to see a fandom abase themselves such.

If anyone doubts me, I'll be glad to post the PM conversation between Mark Warlock and I. Just ask, and I'll provide.

Gubaba wrote:

Heh. Nice try, Dude.

For those of you following at home, Mark Warlock and I have also been talking via PM.

Because I thought (for whatever reason) that I could trust him, I told him what my next step was going to be.

Because he's a... (I don't know what to call it, really), he responded to my private arguments publicly, in order to make himself look like he'd one-upped me.

I'd assumed that Robotech fans had a sense of fair play. I guess I was wrong.

Robotech fans will do ANYTHING, honest or not, to make themselves seem superior.

I'm sad to see that, frankly. It's always sad to see a fandom abase themselves such.

If anyone doubts me, I'll be glad to post the PM conversation between Mark Warlock and I. Just ask, and I'll provide.

Hmm.. I'm not sure what "next step" your talking about.. in all honesty I would have to go back and look through our conversations to see anything else other then the part about "twisting my words" that I responded to in my "public" post. If that is considered unfair to you, then I sincerely to apologize. I didn't really think that would be a big deal. I wanted to simply remind you of that. But if I did breach your trust then publically I do apologize to you.

But for the record I have nothing to hide regarding my views or feelings regarding Robotech and Macross. I have always maintained both public and private that I am a fan of both series, I have always maintained both public and private that I honestly believe that there are grounds for both Robotech and Macross fans to get along. If you feel the need to repost our PMs or pass them around, Its fine with me.

I believe that people who KNOW me would know this… that I really don’t care about looking “superior”.. and I really don’t care what others think of me… it’s very liberating. I go at any conversation or debate with one thing in mind… To respond in as accurate, consistent, and honest a manner as possible. I will throw in personal views at times to help to explain better my point of view, but the last thing I think about is looking “Superior”.


Now as for the topic..

"A Rainy Night" does have some very compelling evidence both in the story and visually that CAN be used to help offer an explination.

If you look at Fokker's fighter in the flash back scene it has the UN SPACY "kite" on the wing, suggesting that the time frame of the scene is post SDF-1 arrival. Then Claudia mentions talks about meeting Fokker for the first time and that after their spat, she doesn't hear from him for over a year. Lisa states "he went into combat". Claudia then says "later when she found out they were both stationed aboard the SDF-1" she went to look for him. That's when she finds him in the hanger with the Veritech Prototypes. That portion puts it at least 2006.

So combining that with the Windstorm comics further support some anti-unification conflict.

BOTH OF YOU GUYS ARE MACROSS AND ROBOTECH FANS SO TAKE IT BACK TO YOUR ROOM.


THAT BEING SAID...


Mark Warlock wrote:

Now as for the topic..

"A Rainy Night" does have some very compelling evidence both in the story and visually that CAN be used to help offer an explination.

If you look at Fokker's fighter in the flash back scene it has the UN SPACY "kite" on the wing, suggesting that the time frame of the scene is post SDF-1 arrival. Then Claudia mentions talks about meeting Fokker for the first time and that after their spat, she doesn't hear from him for over a year. Lisa states "he went into combat". Claudia then says "later when she found out they were both stationed aboard the SDF-1" she went to look for him. That's when she finds him in the hanger with the Veritech Prototypes. That portion puts it at least 2006.

So combining that with the Windstorm comics further support some anti-unification conflict.

YES, BUT QUESTION FROM WHERE DID THE ATTACK CAME?

MEMO1DOMINION wrote:

BOTH OF YOU GUYS ARE MACROSS AND ROBOTECH FANS SO TAKE IT BACK TO YOUR ROOM.


THAT BEING SAID...

LMFAO... Sorry for straying... I did get it back on topic though.

YES, BUT QUESTION FROM WHERE DID THE ATTACK CAME?

I don't believe that is ever established. The only information about that base is what is talked about in that episode. We know that there were anti-UN spies and operatives within the UN.. So it's possible that those agents were able to allow a squadron of anti-UN fighters into the area by masking their radar signature long enough for them to get close. Imagine if one of the other recuits in the tower with Claudia was an Anti-UN agent..

The fighters could have come from somewhere in Canada, or depending on their range, could have come from a ship in the Pacific. It's all speculation at this point since I do not believe there is anything written to support a theory as of yet.

Mark Warlock wrote:

I don't believe that is ever established. The only information about that base is what is talked about in that episode. We know that there were anti-UN spies and operatives within the UN.. So it's possible that those agents were able to allow a squadron of anti-UN fighters into the area by masking their radar signature long enough for them to get close. Imagine if one of the other recuits in the tower with Claudia was an Anti-UN agent..

The fighters could have come from somewhere in Canada, or depending on their range, could have come from a ship in the Pacific. It's all speculation at this point since I do not believe there is anything written to support a theory as of yet.

OK I GUESS THAT IS OPEN TO SPECULATION. BUT GOOD IDEA ON IT TO EXPAND ON "SOMETHING" I AM DOING.

THANKS.