by the fans for the fans

Okay, since there's been a 'warning' about staying on topic in 'Understanding Macross Frontier', I thought I'd start a new topic for the civil debate of this new subject.

So, without fruther delay, I open up the topic.

BRL Wrote (In that other thread... )

What does this have to do with Air Superiority?

Simple: You didn't cite 'Air' superiority in your first comments. Rather, you said something about Space-Superiority. Full atmospheric containment and fusion engines sure do point to the idea that it was meant to operate in space (And we can see in the animation that it's good in atmosphere, too.)


Next, BRL wrote:

That 'great maneuverability' is tad overplayed. Yes, it can modify its atmospheric profile to get better maneuverability (swing wings and all), but that does not make it an Air Superiority nor Dog-fighter. High dash-speed isn't all that critical to Air Superiority platforms, btw. Loitering over a battlefield longer is more critical, something the base Valkyrie cannot do all that well: 12 AAM-1s, 1 x 55mm gatling w/200 rounds and a head-mounted laser is shown to overheat does not make an Air Superiority platform.

Oh, boy...

First, the excellent maneuverability isn't overplayed, it's very evident in the animation. It's shown to have such a nimble nature that it could outperform any current RL fighter in service.

Second, in the supporting documentation for Macross (The original series discussed), the VF-1 is tagged as a CCV (Control-Configurable Vehicle), which menas that its design is such that distributes mass to maximize maneuverability.

Finally, for this point, Canon documentation shows it to be a multi-role aerospace fighter.

BRL continues:

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with Air/Space Superiority.

A response to my comment:

Add to that, why does it carry a gunpod for close-quarters fighting? It can't be just to look good in Battroid mode...

It has everything to do with an aerospace fighter.

First, look at the design philosophy behind the VF-1. It was the primary combat platform for the UN Spacy, which anticipated combat with the giant race that originally inhabbited the wrecked SDF-Macross (Originally a Supervision Army Gunboat).

Now, with this fact in mind, why would a military organization build a purpose-built interceptor, when the primary demands would be for a multi-purpose platform that could 'do it all'?

Loitering over the battlefield is important to air superiority platforms… and the armaments of the “base VF-1” are equal to or superior to that of the F-22A on that note. Without compromising its stealth capabilities, the F-22A can only carry a maximum of 6 AIM-120C AMRAAMs (beyond-visual-range missiles) and two AIM-9M/X Sidewinder short-range missiles. If it throws stealth to the wind, it can add four more missiles to that for a total of twelve missiles of mixed types, and its internal gun is a M61A2 gatling cannon with 480 rounds (good for maybe 1-2 bursts of fire). On the other hand, the VF-1 can mix and match between 3 AMM-1s per hardpoint or 15 HMM-1 short-range micro-missiles, and it also has the 55mm gatling cannon (a good deal more lethal than the M61A2) with 200 rounds, and an anti-aircraft laser capable of firing off-axis and with functionally unlimited ammunition. It has the makings of an excellent air superiority platform.

Add to this, The ONLY time the VF-1’s AA laser was ever shown as being in danger of overheating was when the single laser on Kakizaki’s VF-1A was being used as a cutting tool to cut a hole in the hull of Vrlitwhai’s starship. It’d been firing a sustained beam for a long period of time. At no point is a VF-1’s laser ever shown to overheat during actual combat use.

And, to conclude, BRL wrote:

No, I mean why develop further lines of Variable Fighters? Unless they are built to fulfill different functions, then its just throwing money to build something 'just because'. If the VF-1 was all that and a bag of chips, why the hell would they have replaced it with the VF-4 Lightning III? Why build the VF-11 Thunderbolt?

Let me just throw this in...

New models, such as the VF-4, VF-9, VF-11, etc. were developed for a variety of reasons… which mirror the reasons that the modern military develops new fighter aircraft: incorporating improvements in technology that can’t be gracefully adapted to older models (advanced stealth tech., beam weapons, more powerful engines, different engine technologies, different control systems, etc.), to fill specialized combat roles (dedicated space and atmospheric fighters), and to adapt to changes in tactical philosophies. Examples include:



VF-1 Valkyrie: Kept in service into the 2050s with a series of evolutionary upgrades, with the latest model being the VF-1X used during the Vindirance group’s coup attempt in 2051 in the main timeline. Kept in service as the VF-1 Valkyrie Kai in the alternate universe as a space-optimized VF well into the 2040s and beyond. MU VF-1s seen on the tarmac in Macross Plus and in combat in Macross VF-X2.



VF-4 Lightning III (MU): Developed to be a space-optimized fighter incorporating improved control systems over those of the VF-1 Valkyrie (tech. retroactively introduced on the VF-1 as the “Block 6” (or DYRL) cockpit), built-in beam cannons and semi-conformal missiles, and multiple engine systems (reaction turbines, rockets, and ramjets) and new wing structure for improved maneuverability and endurance. Seen on the tarmac in Macross Plus. Also later used as a platform for testing spirita weapons in 2046 (Macross 7 Trash).



VF-4 Siren (AU): Developed to be the U.N.’s next-gen variable fighter incorporating multiple engine systems (see above), and beam weaponry. Later further enhanced to VF-4S spec to incorporate control systems for funnel-type remote-control weapons and the first practical beam rifles.



VF-9 Cutlass (MU): Developed as a low-cost atmosphere-optimized fighter for colony fleets.



VF-19 Excalibur (MU): Developed as a multirole aerospace fighter to incorporate new technologies including miniaturized pin-point barrier, external fold booster systems, and next-generation advanced active stealth systems.



VF-19 Excalibur Kai (MU): Developed as a specialized aerospace fighter under Operation M to act as a Minmay Attack platform, incorporating speaker pods and internal speaker systems.



VF-22 Sturmvogel II (MU): Developed as a multirole aerospace fighter to incorporate new technologies including miniaturized pin-point barrier, external fold booster systems, next-generation advanced active stealth systems, and brainwave control/brain direct imaging systems. (Note BDI/BCS was retained on production model according to Macross Chronicle, though functionality was reduced to supplementing physical controls). Also incorporated inertia vector control system, three-dimensional thrust vectoring, excellent passive stealth characteristics, variable camber wing that can modify its own cross-section and area.



VF-25 Messiah (MU): Developed as a multirole aerospace fighter to incorporate new technologies including EX-Gear controls w/ inbuilt neuromuscular sensor controls for fine motion management, inertia store converter to reduce stress on the pilot and airframe during high-g maneuvers, full integration of onboard systems, onboard AI with tactical command programs, linear actuator to decrease number of moving parts, reduce transformation time by 2/3, and increase durability, transformable armor parts, and the ability to remote-control AIF-7S Ghost UCAVs.



VF-27 Lucifer (MU): See above for most, except instead of EX-Gear and a neuromuscular interface it uses a direct full brainwave control system achieved via cybernetic implantation, full virtual cockpit, quantum reaction beam weapons, built-in internal fold system, and remote control ability for AIF-9V Ghosts and other VF-27 Lucifer fighters via zero-time fold communications.



VF-2SS Valkyrie II + SAP (AU): Developed as a multirole space-optimized variable fighter incorporating advanced Zentradi overtechnology including more powerful and efficient engines, secondary reaction engine systems, enhanced durability, more reliable and faster transformation, enhanced close combat capability, g-support armature to help pilots operate better under high g-force loads, enhanced combat endurance, introduction of railgun-type gunpods to replace gatling cannons, integrated anti-ship rail-cannon, and ability to control multiple Squire-type auto-attacker bits.



Etc. etc.


(My thanks to 'The Fact God' for the assistance)

Images would help? I say VF-1 of course. But like I've said countless times I AM biased.

I guess the question is ill posed, because VF-1 series opposed not other airplanes. It was designed to fight against unknown aliens, so division into fighter/intercptor does not make much sense here.

Nikolay116 wrote:

I guess the question is ill posed, because VF-1 series opposed not other airplanes. It was designed to fight against unknown aliens, so division into fighter/intercptor does not make much sense here.

Okay... Let me go ahead and tell you why you're wrong.

First off, as a fighter, the VF-1's role was still fulfilled, even if it went up against battlepods, powered armor, or whatever. Just because the other guys' war-machines don't conform to the narrow deffinition of Earth doesn't matter. The VF-1 still engaged these machines in a combat role, as for a good part of that, it appeared to fly.

Ok,

we're apparently talking past one another. I'm JUST talking about the basic VF-1 from the Tv series (stock, not modified w/armor parts). Yes, the 15-shot MERs (I had actually forgotten about) from DYRL give the Valkyrie good intra-atmospheric Air Superiority capability, but I wasn't talking about the DYRL versions.

The VF-1 is designed (intra-atmospheric) to climb from lower atmo to upper atmo to blunt an enemy BEFORE they descend to the level where they would be a serious threat (which would be for taking care of descending troop ships, sub-capital ships etc). It was thrust into the role of Air Superiority, where it often got creamed in mecha-to-mecha match ups outside of the main cast.

When you add in the Super/Strike package, it gets good armaments and additional reaction mass that makes it an excellent Space Superiority platform. It was made the equal to the Queadlunn-Rau (a rather powerful Air Superiority mecha).

As for the gunpod, it was there for CQB (aka Battloid Mode).

Okay, BRL...

Can you tell me where you get this from? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, or anything. I'm just wondering where this idea came from.

Viper wrote:

Okay, BRL...

Can you tell me where you get this from? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, or anything. I'm just wondering where this idea came from.

Look at what its designed to carry: x12 AAM-1s or x6 RMS-1s. That's a BVR combat load designed for Interception. Its WVR armaments are sparse to say the least. Yes, as I said, I had forgotten about the 15-shot MER from DYRL, which makes the Valkyrie Air Superior capable.

BRL Wrote:

we're apparently talking past one another. I'm JUST talking about the basic VF-1 from the Tv series (stock, not modified w/armor parts). Yes, the 15-shot MERs (I had actually forgotten about) from DYRL give the Valkyrie good intra-atmospheric Air Superiority capability, but I wasn't talking about the DYRL versions.

Uh, they're the same bird, sir. Aside from the hands, that is.

SDF:Macross version: Block 5 Spec
DYRL: Block 6 Spec

BRL wrote:

The VF-1 is designed (intra-atmospheric) to climb from lower atmo to upper atmo to blunt an enemy BEFORE they descend to the level where they would be a serious threat (which would be for taking care of descending troop ships, sub-capital ships etc). It was thrust into the role of Air Superiority, where it often got creamed in mecha-to-mecha match ups outside of the main cast.

Sorry, sir. This doesn't work.

First, the OSM gives a lot of evidence to suggest that the VF-1 was designed for multiple mission roles, to include AIR and SPACE superiority, as well as the extreme notion of an anti-ship role, carrying RMS-1 reaction missiles.

Also, I'm going to throw this in.

In current day, the F-15C Eagle has a deffinite BVR capability, but I never heard anyone call it an interceptor. It's a pure-bred fighter, and people have used it in a dogfighting role quite admirably.

And, in closing, BRL wrote:

Look at what its designed to carry: x12 AAM-1s or x6 RMS-1s. That's a BVR combat load designed for Interception. Its WVR armaments are sparse to say the least. Yes, as I said, I had forgotten about the 15-shot MER from DYRL, which makes the Valkyrie Air Superior capable.

Sorry, sir. I had asked for specific sources. These statements are simply assumptions based on opinion, and OSM and supporting documentation overrule your opinion.

Sorry, dude.

Viper wrote:

Sorry, sir. I had asked for specific sources. These statements are simply assumptions based on opinion, and OSM and supporting documentation overrule your opinion.

Sorry, dude.

Then I concede.

The Valkyrie is a multi-role variable fighter.

We don't see specialization in the Macross universe until after SW1 starting with the space optimization of the VF-4 and moving beyond.

The VF-19A and K were atmosphere optimized fighters while the VF-19F and S Blazer was space optimized. Yet, both could operate in air and space.

The most specialized military fighters thus far have to be the VF-17 and VF-22 spec ops or strike fighters.